NL100 FR, Play with set – my leak 3 examples

10.02.2010, 05:40 0

1) This is probably my biggest leak - I play set many times too passively. I feel I should have raised flop to give him wrong pot odds with draw. (but which amount?) My problem is that I don´t want to chase out every hand because I want some nice profit with my set. But then I can´t fold it and lose all BI ♠_cry: ♠_cry: I sometimes feel like I don´t know how to play the set in drawish board - can you please help?

Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

Play hand

$0.5/$1 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

Known players:
[tg]BB$56.50:///////;UTG1$39.85:///////;UTG2$105.15:///////;MP1$50.50:///////;MP2$51.95:///////;MP3$144.60:///////;CO$107.05:///////;BU$85.70:///////;SB(Hero)$100.50:///////;[/tg]

Preflop: Hero is SB with T:h, T:s.
UTG1 calls $1.00, 3 folds, MP3 raises to $5.00, 2 folds, Hero calls $4.50, 2 folds.

Flop: ($12) Q:h, 2:c, T:d (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets $7.00, Hero calls $7.00.

Turn: ($26) A:s (2 players)
Hero checks, MP3 bets $12.75, Hero raises to $29.00, MP3 calls $16.25.

River: ($84) 9:d (2 players)
Hero bets $59.50(All-In), MP3 calls $59.50.

Final Pot: $203.
Results follow:

MP3 shows a straight, ace high(K:h J:c).
Hero shows three of a kind, tens(T:h T:s).

MP3 wins with a straight, ace high(K:h J:c).

I call speculatively on flop. I raise turn as the board starts to look very draw heavy and I still don´t believe he completed straight. On river I will call anyway so I rather shove myself to make some hands call me - e.g. if he has an Ace or thinks I am bluffing.

Many times I tend to slowplay set on flop like this because I am afraid that if I reraise big on flop, people with top pairs will fold to me. I rather let them bet / bluf and just passively call and maybe reraise turn + bet river. I want to earn some money with my set (however, in fact I feel I lost already thousands $ in this way). And I am afraid that if I raise big on flop, I will chase away worse hands and OESD will call me anyway. What shall I do with these sets on drawish board? ♠_confused: ♠_confused:

MY FEELING RE 1 - I guess check flop is fine (it is likely he will C-bet), but then I should have reraised 25? Or which amount?

Many times when I choose to play rather actively it leads to situation that they just fold on flop which I regret - see next example 2.

2) After losing 100$ with slowplayed set above in example 1 I decided to play it actively on draw heavy board. However, I don´t like such small winnings if I finally hit the set. I think this is wrongly played as well?

Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

Play hand

$0.5/$1 No-Limit Hold'em (7 handed)

Known players:
[tg]SB$43.40:///////;BB$100.00:///////;MP1$100.00:///////;MP2$128.85:///////;MP3$104.00:///////;CO$54.50:///////;BU(Hero)$100.00:///////;[/tg]

Preflop: Hero is BU with 9:d, 9:h.
MP1 folds, MP2 raises to $3.50, 2 folds, Hero calls $3.50, 2 folds.

Flop: ($8.5) 9:s, 3:s, 2:h (2 players)
MP2 bets $7.00, Hero raises to $19.00, MP2 folds, Hero gets uncalled bet back.

Final Pot: $15.5.

MY FEELING RE 2 - I might have only called the flop? I have position and he does not necessarily have 2 spades? I chased him out too hardly. Was it a mistake? Would he call with 2 spades? Or is it OK and I should I always raise flops with 2suited cards / 2connected cards? Again - which amount? (I guess correct play is to always raise. And if he does not have a draw, he likely folds + he may call some strong top pair/overpair/2pair. And if he has a draw I want to give him wrong pot odds for call. ). But I am still struggling with the correct amount.

3) Another example of slowplayed set which led to bad results.

Hand converted with online PokerStrategy.com hand converter:

Play hand

$0.5/$1 No-Limit Hold'em (9 handed)

Known players:
[tg]MP2$176.65:///////;MP3$97.00:///////;CO$164.90:///////;BU(Hero)$102.70:///////;SB$197.00:///////;BB$100.00:///////;UTG1$102.60:///////;UTG2$100.50:///////;MP1$125.00:///////;[/tg]

Preflop: Hero is BU with 4:h, 4:s.
UTG1 folds, UTG2 raises to $3.00, 4 folds, Hero calls $3.00, SB folds, BB calls $2.00.

Flop: ($9.5) 2:s, 6:d, 4:d (3 players)
BB checks, UTG2 bets $6.00, Hero calls $6.00, BB folds.

Turn: ($21.5) K:d (2 players)
UTG2 checks, Hero checks.

River: ($21.5) J:h (2 players)
UTG2 bets $11.00, Hero raises to $22.00, UTG2 raises to $33.00, Hero calls $11.00.

Final Pot: $87.5.
Results follow:

Hero shows three of a kind, fours(4:h 4:s).
UTG2 shows a flush, king high(J:d Q:d).

UTG2 wins with a flush, king high(J:d Q:d).

CONCLUSION RE 3 - This is similar to situation 2 (in 2 I did raise and in 3 here I just called). Should I have raised here? How much?

Generally - Should I always raise a suited/connected flop? Which amount to give him wrong pot ods? It is difficult, also if I am on position and he does not bet flop. I think he will call pot bet (9$) anyway with a draw due to big implied odds.

One last question - with a stack of 100BB, how many BB should I be willing to invest preflop on a call for set value? I usually raise JJ-22 preflop 3xBB or 3,5xBB and then I am willing to call 10 (sometimes even 13) even against one player. It is probably too loose? I just feel it is good e.g. to raise 3xBB with 44 and call 9 - i.e. to invest additional 6 for a set value if we both have 100BB in stack. Many times it happened there was flop like AT4 rainbow and I collected easily whole stack of villain who had AK. But what do you think in longterm is a good ratio? (I read about call 20 in bronze but it looks too tight to me). btw - In NL100FR I have sample of 1500 hands JJ-22 and I have only +200$ which is quite bad isn´t it? Can we uncover some reasons?

Many thanks and sorry for bunch of information! This is quite a nightmare for me :f_mad:

6 replies

VzLOM

Joined: 23.12.2007

Posts: 3,186

10.02.2010, 10:00 0

All your lines must be heavy relative of board structure and of your lines on such boards with other type of hands.

So when u want to raise or call just answer some questions:
what else can i rep here?
what worst will call me?
what to do on next streets?

Yeah theory blablabla....but that leads me to your hands.
1st hand i dont like F ch-raise too much while the only draw here is KJ. But i will often donk turn depending on his stats (he could have smth like QJ, KQ, midp that he will ch). Ch-raise is also fine vs many villians.

2nd. nothing we can do here, the board is too drawy. As you know any scare card could not only kill our hand but also kill an action.

And the last one i'd also raise for the same reason. And im checking such turn vs many competent players.
As played i think we dont have raise\call line here, till none of worse is raising (esp. minraising us)

Getting back to balancing - when u raise u need to raise another type of hands here sometimes, atleast vs regs - draws, air, maybe even thin valueraises with midstrong hands.

блОгородный днEVник
:f_confused: :f_rolleyes: :f_cool: ♠_rolleyes:> ♠_confused:> ♠_cool:

_Anonymous_

10.02.2010, 20:11 0

Thanks for opinion. I also compared my play again with article on set plays again http://www.pokerstrategy.com/strategy/bss/1591/1

re 1) I also believed slowplay is not that bad.. But it is probably still better to just raise here anyway to build the pot - may be not that big raise so that he does not fold his top pair or medium pair. I´ll be curious what judges say about it and on beting amounts.

re 2) I would reraise also some other hands (top pairs, overpairs, even Axs :spade:) sometimes so It may be good to play this way.

re 3) I played stupid this one. It is against two players and I should have probably protected the hand. Still I don´t know how much to raise here.

Bierbaer

Joined: 27.05.2005

Posts: 3,322

11.02.2010, 13:02 0

Hand 1)
I would probably c/c, too, since the board is dry.
On the A turn I think I'd c/c again with the plan of leading the river.
A c/c-c/r-line looks very strong here so he might even fold hands like top2pair.
And once he bets I don't expect him to have a straightdraw too often because he usually has a pair+draw-hand and so he's more prone to check back.

As played on the river there's nothing else you can do but shove it in.
If you check you would basically have to c/f and he might very well give you value if he has worse hands.

Hand 2)
The c/r is nice, there are a lot of draws out there. By check/calling you won't get any value if he has total air anyway and he might even get scared if the flushdraw gets there and you bet - so you might even get less value out of an overpair by check/calling than if you just check/raised.

Hand 3)
The same reasoning as in hand 2 applies in hand 3.
As played on the turn that's exactly the case described above: You slowplay and a draw hits. Now not only you are scared but he is, too.
=> Raise flop.

As for his implied odds.
If he checks to you and he calls because he thinks he has implied odds you have to consider that he only has them of you call him down.
You want him to call with a FD because if the flush hits you can easily check back and give up, it's not as if you blindly stack off every time you hit a set regardless of the board and the action in the hand.
So he might think he has the implied odds while he actually doesn't have them.

Btw:
Please only one hand per thread, it's easier to handle.
And don't post results, it always affects the opinions of the people posting.

Variance giveth and variance taketh away.

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_Anonymous_

11.02.2010, 16:35 0

Thanks!

(I posted 3 hands, even with the results just to give you a full picture why I am so puzzled with set play. Sry for too much info). Nice to hear that the c/c flop in situation 1 is not a complete blunder ♦

Can I have one more question:

--> Generally, how much would you raise flop in situation 2 and 3? Generally pot bet? (with potential minor differences according to situation / reads?)

VzLOM

Joined: 23.12.2007

Posts: 3,186

11.02.2010, 18:49 0

i think raise size is not so critical while in position we are going to play on stack if he call any raise.

блОгородный днEVник
:f_confused: :f_rolleyes: :f_cool: ♠_rolleyes:> ♠_confused:> ♠_cool:

Bierbaer

Joined: 27.05.2005

Posts: 3,322

12.02.2010, 11:59 0

Yeah I think around pot is ok. You can make it slightly smaller but you always have to consider once the opponent calls he likely has a draw with a lot of outs so if you make it much smaller it may give him the odds to call!

Another thing to consider is that by raising bigger you're not giving up anything in terms of balancing.
Even if you were bluffraising in this spot you would want to make it big because you want the opponent to fold.
And every hand that is strong enough to be raised for value you want to make it big to get value and protect.

Variance giveth and variance taketh away.

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[Closed] NL100 FR, Play with set - my leak 3 examples