[Closed] NL200 AK 4way OOP Axx board

i def bet\fold flop as u said.
Then, if i get called only by 1 i bet\fold again (if more callers it tends me to c\f). There's no point in c\fold blank turn after we beter flop for value and get only 1 caller imo.
River you can either blockbet\fold or c-call depending on stats. I dont think much ppl will bluff push here cos u shown so much strengh and also cos he will have med hands lots of the time here and just call (AT-AQ)

yeah, I understand the situation similarly but I have problem with the fact that Ï am not sure if I am betting for value at all starting from flop. Players on NL200 have some experience and this seems to me like ugly spot already on flop. (one of them has set quite often).

I have read some article from very experienced pro who said that it is good to be able to fold even the best hand if the situation has negative implied odds - like this. I just lose 6$ if I c/f flop and can go for the next hand where I overplay them and I am not in set up situation vs set.

but I have problem with the fact that Ï am not sure if I am betting for value at all starting from flop

hmm i see what u mean. But still. There's tonn of value and u are beaten only by 6 set combos.

Hi,

easy c/f on turn against that particular villain.
He called 4-way on flop!!!!
He has it nearly always!
As played b/f turn, c/f river.

Best regards,
Anin

He called 4-way on flop!!!! He has it nearly always!

He folds 8d9d-KdQd? He folds AT-AK, TT-JJ on flop?
the fact that we were 4way just increases % that one of them have strong hand, thats it, it doesnt change his particular range, cos he's still calling all these hands.
Correct me if im wrong plz.

Originally posted by AninIII
easy c/f on turn against that particular villain.
He called 4-way on flop!!!!

I agree - see my general comment below. But the reason to bet is that he can have FD as well. (I agree this one is not calling JJ-KK and weaker Ax.)

Originally posted by AninIII
As played b/f turn, c/f river.

That may be true as he is probably not likely to bluff busted draws. (Although, blockbet is standard line as well IMO. If I would not be tilted I would bet/fold river as well).

BUT MY GENERAL COMMENT HERE IS:

- Already on flop there is such a small potential to extract positive value here. Smaller made hands will not invest much.
- FDs have very nice equity to call us and have position on us.
- Against set, we are drawing dead.

Is not it better to give up already on flop? Or C/F turn at least. I think this spot taking account all the likely holdings and estimated action + position argument is not a good spot. And you should rather C/F on turn at the latest to avoid negative implied odds (even if you fold the best hand from time to time).

Imo bet/fold flop, bet/fold turn $53 - the small bet is very bad because he gets the odds to call with almost any draw.
And then I c/c river.
He never has a 7 because he'd fold all 7x by the turn unless it's a 2pair in which case he raises - the same goes for sets. Why would he just call flop and turn with it on a drawy board like this? Even 4way he should raise it on the flop oftentimes since there's a guy behind him so he doesn't want to face ugly cards on the turn 3way.

Once he calls flop and turn I mostly put him on strong FDs, unfortunately we block the A but this is even one more reason not to blockbet - the range of medium strength hands like A :diamond:x we can try to get value from is non-existant because he never calls 7x and medium pairs, probably not even on the flop.

The problem you had in this hand was your betsize on the turn - if you make it $53 he will just shove his sets and you can easily fold, whereas by making it small he might think he has a lot of foldequity with a raise and therefore just calls with his set.
Also you're not too likely to have a draw because in this case you want him to fold (small bet even induces raises) and therefore bet big.

mhmm, makes sense. And you still think that this is in long-term EV+ hand starting from flop? Even if you play it correct like you say?

Imagine there are 3 opponents and all of them have range of PPs, SCs and Axs hands.

(regarding your suggested line, if I am IP with a set like he had, I always call you on flop and on turn and shove on river - and you don´t know anything again as I may have been calling my FD on turn due to implied odds / might have called AK and bet it for value on river. You end up losing your whole stack anyway. There is no reason to raise the set IP in this spot on turn. Good regs call it down even taking the risk of FD just for the reason not to chase out attentive AK player. And FD has only 28% vs made set from flop).

Its bad not to raise set atleast on turn.
There's 3card straightdraw and 2 fd. Its not just we must defend our hand but also theres half a deck of scare cards for him on river that he will insta ch\fold on.
)

Originally posted by VzLOM
Its bad not to raise set atleast on turn.

I tend to disaggree. In case you raise he instafolds disregarding any future cards. If he is good player he is on bet/fold mode with worse made hands like AK - exactly as you would be in his shoes. Call is the best option how to extract from regulars - it is slightly tricky play, but you don´t get much money from regs with straightforward play.

Against fish I agree - I probably raise already on flop, or call flop and raise turn, depending on his stats.

Originally posted by jekyll001
mhmm, makes sense. And you still think that this is in long-term EV+ hand starting from flop? Even if you play it correct like you say?

That is hard to say, but the only other option would be to c/f flop - you can expect to get at least one call 100% of the time and if you assume this:

Originally posted by jekyll001
I tend to disaggree. In case you raise he instafolds disregarding any future cards. If he is good player he is on bet/fold mode with worse made hands like AK - exactly as you would be in his shoes. Call is the best option how to extract from regulars - it is slightly tricky play, but you don´t get much money from regs with straightforward play.

is true you have a hard decision on the turn - you have to bet/call the turn if he's capable of making a delayed semibluff and flats his sets.
Obv in this case you can c/f the river because he doesn't have a bluffingrange there anymore.

Since we don't know if any of the assumptions above are true imo the best way is to take the safe b/f line on the turn.
Now that I thought about it again I'm actually more inclined to c/f the river though.
Our two bets look a lot like Ax and this is an obvious bluffcatching-spot for us, so he might be less inclined to shove busted draws.

I b/f flop, b/f turn, ch/f river. I dont think it makes sense to just ch/f flop. You wouldnt usually ch/f AA as an overpair I think (even vs 3)? And AK on this bd has more or less same eQuity vs opponents ranges.

I dont know the exact maths, but given 3 opponents all with pocket pairs pre it still makes it less likely than not that you are ahead on this flop. Each has 12% chance to hit set, so I dont think probability that at least one has a set can be more than around 1/3.