[Closed] 11$ Deepstack, JJ IP vs donkbet

imo fold river def

on turn u might even fold vs tight players, raise(as bluff) and sometimes call too as u do (but i dont want calling that much cos A is worse card in the deck for u)

vs that small bet on turn i raise or fold (most likely raise)

would reraise flop , dont think you can put him on a 7 or over pair

as played on turn / river would be happy to call this down

nh

river call is close ... but most times I gone call it ... becuase the line of villian is most times a T

Originally posted by larseda
nh

river call is close ... but most times I gone call it ... because the line of villain is most times a T

why u think he will donk on flop and barel turn and river with Tx?flush + A came on turn and we call
i agree that villains bets ar weak -> so why we r not raising turn and checking behind on river if we got called or fold if villain reraise?
are caling we hoping that 7 or J will hit on river??
if u r suggesting that we should call turn and call river (i guess we only have a bluff catcher), how big bet are we calling on river??

i prefer to raise on turn in this spot instead of pasiv calling cos we dont have a flush draw

what's the point in raising the turn? he is not folding a 7, an ace or a flush. we are only getting value out of T-(JQK):heart: assuming he doesn't ship and we fold the best hand

Originally posted by alejandrosh
what's the point in raising the turn? he is not folding a 7, an ace or a flush. we are only getting value out of T-(JQK):heart: assuming he doesn't ship and we fold the best hand

we r bluffing (his bet sizing screams nuts or weaknes and is much more harder to have nuts imo ♦ ) this is not raise for value we dont have like a ton of showdown value with JJ and if he is behind with pair + i dont mind if he folds and we take pot down on turn

villain is almost never 3betting on turn there without boat or flush imo

why not folding an Ax, i think that villains will fold Ax like at least 1/3 of time, ?

imo raise turn if we r planing to call river bet when river bricks is better, raise turn and then check behind on river if we dont improve (also sometimes we can bluff shove on some rivers for ex Q K :heart:) + we r taking value from K :heart:X, Q :heart:X and he will fold most Tx with weak which is ok with me

To me it seems like the preflop raise is a bit too small. I prefer keeping it closer to 2.5x as the stacks are still deep. You can min raise and it would be the same.
I think I would raise the flop quite big as there are a lot of draws possible. He donks like 1/4 of the pot so it looks like he is trying to draw cheaply to me so I would make it about 3000 and hopefully take it down.
On the turn and river I think I can't fold getting like 4 to 1. But I would not turn my hand into a bluff as I think it still has value.

Originally posted by Albeback
To me it seems like the preflop raise is a bit too small. I prefer keeping it closer to 2.5x as the stacks are still deep. You can min raise and it would be the same.
I think I would raise the flop quite big as there are a lot of draws possible. He donks like 1/4 of the pot so it looks like he is trying to draw cheaply to me so I would make it about 3000 and hopefully take it down.
On the turn and river I think I can't fold getting like 4 to 1. But I would not turn my hand into a bluff as I think it still has value.

imo we all agree that preflop is too small
imo call or raise flop have similar value
i dont get it your thoughts that calling river is >>>> then rasing turn (turnig hand into bluff)
vs which hands do u think Hero hand has showdown value that woudnt fold when we raise turn? we only have bluff catcher on river, i dont think that villain is betting Tx for value there

I think raising the flop is almost mandatory but anyway it seems this is not the main issue. I would prefer to raise flop when I am likely still ahead if called instead of raising the turn when I am basically never ahead.
First of all by raising the turn we should invest more than if we just call because I am assuming that we are not going to min raise. Second I do not think that given the way he bets in the hand he is ever folding an A on the turn. Third we can always fold the river if another heart comes assuming he bets. If the J of hearts comes we might be able to stack him if he has a big heart or a 7. I know it is going to be a small percentage but it is better to be sure to have this chance.
And he might bluff the river with a heart if he misses the flush or with some gutshots he might have.
And I agree that the main value comes from bluff catching but I fail to see any better hands he would fold on the turn to our raise so this is why I prefer not to bluff. Bluff catching I believe has value here because he seems to be betting very small. If he was betting big/standard I would prob fold the turn.
I think you should stop assuming that he might fold an A because I really don't think he would. By the way he bets it is obv he is not very good.

@aldeback
what r we reping with raising flop?

if he folds TxQ :heart:, Q :heart:Kx, on turn when we raise im happy with that

the main issue on turn here is
a) we dont know what beting size will villain have on river we cant assume that villain will bet 1/3 pot or less, that leads to b)
b) why r we calling on turn, what is our plan for river play when we call turn? what will do if villain bets what will do when villain checks, are we raiseing some rivers as bluf??
c) WOULD WE FOLD ON RIVER IF VILLAIN BETS 1/2 or 2/3 pot on river

when we raise turn we r reping prety strong hand there(boat/flush or bluff) do u raise with AQ/AK on turn?? so when we raise there on turn do u really think that he will shove worse than flush/boat is hard for him to shove 7X too in that spot + we r setting up for a river shove bluff on some rivers and yea when i raise turn/shove river i'm expecting him to fold Ax most of the times even 7x on right rivers,

we dont need to raise very big on turn cos we r reping very strong range so raise to 3200-3700 is way enough on turn and we have nice stacks left behind for river bluff
Hero starts with 19k efective stacks
900(preflop)+ 800(flop)+3200(raise on turn)= 5k invested till river if villains calls pot is ~10k, hero has 14k behind so we can bet 6800 on some rivers AS BLUFF and have the job done (and if he calls we will have 18bb behind left) so yea imo raise or fold turn

We actually have a hand on the flop. So it is not about reping anything it is for protection.
Well I think the number of hands you try to fold on the turn is smaller than the number of hands that will call you and the ones that will fold we are actually ahead of. Again to me it does not seem a good spot to bluff. He is not folding anything that has us beat. Yes we are reping a very strong range but also a very narrow one so we will have more bluffs/semibluffs in our range. I would actually like a semibluff here with a high heart card.
And if we do not raise very big the turn we will get called a lot so I think this is just spewing chips. I would rather just give up and fold the turn.
It already happened to me so often to get called by TP no kicker on 3 suited plus 3 or 4 to a straight board that I don't think we should try to bluff here when we have to invest so much of our stack. It's very marginal and very high variance I think.

if his range is weak enough to make a bluff profitable we have an easy calldown anyway. sure if he pots the river it's a horrible spot but I don't like to make a bad turn raise with the only reason to avoid it.

Originally posted by alejandrosh
if his range is weak enough to make a bluff profitable we have an easy calldown anyway. sure if he pots the river it's a horrible spot but I don't like to make a bad turn raise with the only reason to avoid it.

so whats u r line on turn?

if call ->whats ur plan for river? do u call if K,Q, A hit, what about what about brick and villain bets 1/2 pot

call, call, call, fold, call unless he insta bets.

@alejandrosh
so if i get it right your plan is to call on any river (2-9, J-A)1/2-2/3 pot size bet (except on X:heart:, T and if he insta bets) hoping that this villain has has what?
like if Kd hit on river and villain bets 1/2pot we snap call.... hmmmmm

Well villain might very well check if he hits his K so yes. If he bets it is unlikely he is only betting a pair of kings. And preflop size is just fine.

Originally posted by TheRebuz
@alejandrosh
so if i get it right your plan is to call on any river (2-9, Q-A)1/2-2/3 pot size bet (except on X:heart:, T and if he insta bets) hoping that this villain has has what?

like if Kd hit on river and villain bets 1/2pot we snap call.... hmmmmm

T9-TK type of hand , 2/3 is a big too big and looks too much as a valuebet with a flush-7 or Ace so then it's probably a fold, and I'm not calling a jack ♦

@TheRebuz
because fish like to small bet mid pair
top pair -> 1/2 pot
medium pair -> 1/4 pot

I dont see a better Hand folding to a raise on turn ... so we should call or fold against nits