Ignoring opponents except fish

Hi RoamingStreets, welcome to Pokerstrategy!

Seems like you're already pretty knowledgeable about this game for a self-proclaimed "newbie". Spotting and isolating weak players and adjusting your play to take maximum advantage of them is generally the key to a good winrate. That's also where table selection comes into play, you want to play against those players, there is no point in joining a table with players of equal or higher skill only.

Then again, it is also possible to trap yourself with this line of thinking. First of all, you always need to consider why any given move is effective against any particular player. Simply playing ATC versus a player just because he is weak is not necessarily the way to go, unless you're simply trying to steal pots against a nit. You always need to be aware of what your opponent's specific weakness is, and what you can do to exploit it. It is also possible to mislabel a player's tendencies based on a small sample of hands.

There is an article about the Five Player Types that deals with this topic, you might want to check it out if you haven't already.

Thank you, Harrier.

Definitely took some things to consider from your reply.

Especially mislabeling. I usually mark a player after 2 samples of certain move, and whatever goes beyond that count could be causing confirmation bias. Will be more conservative with it.

Thanks for the article. I gave it a read, watched video and done a quiz off it.
Was considering 'calling stations' as a specified weakness, rather than playstyle.

Appreciate your input.

Originally posted by RoamingStreets
Was considering 'calling stations' as a specified weakness, rather than playstyle.

Well, being a calling station can actually be considered a weakness, since it's a losing playing style.

You say you haven't "figured out the holdem manager part" yet. Does that mean you don't own the program yet, or simply that you couldn't figure out how to set it up? If it's the latter, I'm sure someone on the forum can help you with that. If you don't own it yet, we can discuss your situation and your goals to see whether it makes sense to make that investment.

While we're at it, you may also be interested in our Overview of NL Hold'em lessons, which also includes the article I showed you in my last post. Depending on your skill level, not everything may be new to you, but there should be plenty of useful stuff. You already seem to know the basics, so you can probably skip Stage 1, though.

And if you're going to stick around, how about you take a moment to Introduce yourself to the rest of the forum?

You say you haven't "figured out the holdem manager part" yet. Does that mean you don't own the program yet, or simply that you couldn't figure out how to set it up?

I don't own it, and apparently won't be able to use it neither.
I set up flopzilla and cardrunner... Once I was to check how KT/KJ do vs top10% openings... Couldn't figure out buttons to click.
Since I'm new to forum, I'm not sure where it's a good place for such a discuss. Could you give me a hint?
Jivaro caught my eye yesterday. Starting at $5/month. I'm afraid to see what it continues with...

I'm giving NL Hold'em lessons a read. Thank you for such support.

Right, introducing!
I made post, here.

Nice to see that you're sticking around.

I dropped you a few lines in your introduction thread, and I noticed over there that you're mostly a tournament player. The lessons I linked you to earlier are actually meant for NL Hold'em cash players, because I assumed you play cash games based on your first post. Sorry about that.

We have a similar Overview of SNG lessons, though, and there is also an article about a simple SNG Beginner Strategy to help get you on your way. In general, tournament poker is played a bit differently compared to cash games. One of the most important differences is that a decision that is profitable in terms of chips is not necessarily always profitable in terms of money in tournament poker, while in cash game, gaining more chips is always profitable. The articles about stack value in the overview should tell you all about it.

If you're mostly playing tournaments, getting software like Hold'em Manager or PokerTracker is probably not really worth it. They have some uses for tournament players, but they are mostly geared towards cash games. I haven't heard of Jivaro before, but from what I can tell, it seems to be a similar tool.

Originally posted by RoamingStreets
I set up flopzilla and cardrunner... Once I was to check how KT/KJ do vs top10% openings... Couldn't figure out buttons to click.
Since I'm new to forum, I'm not sure where it's a good place for such a discuss. Could you give me a hint?

I assume you mean Cardrunners EV? I have heard about both this software and Flopzilla, but I'm not familiar with them, sorry. There is a dedicated Poker Tools board on the forum, but I don't think they discuss these tools either. I did my own calculations with PokerStrategy's free Equilab tool, though, and it says that a top 10% range (which consists of 77+, A9s+, KTs+, AJo+, KQo) is about a 66.5% favorite over KJ and KT.

By the way, if you decide to try Equilab for yourself, please be advised that on rooms like Pokerstars, it is not allowed to run this program while your poker client is open.

Thanks for pointing out these SNG lessons. Reading it right now.
You have nothing to be sorry about. If I'd do it as I should have (introducing first) we would not roll into it. it's my bad.

This ICM concept is not new for me... Thou it's hard to implement it yet. I never cared about $EV since I was thinking this way: 'I know that it's okay to bust without any money in 75-85% of the time. So I might as well stop worrying about it and make best decisions possible for the cEV.'
Of cause, I won't do +cEV call on the bubble, it can lead to busting. Generally, follow my instincts in 'ICM-heavy' spots.
Then this concept of risk premium I read, it smashed my self-confidence to ground. Feels like I have absolutely no clue how to play.

Appreciate your input on software. Will not worry about it too much.
For sure downloading the Equilab before my next session. Don't open along with PokerStars - noted!

P.S. 33,5% vs top10%? Somebody made a very bad call there... Can't remember pot odds in that case, still think it was a bad one.
P.P.S. Thanks for all the time you put into talking with me.

Here's another tool that might interest you, it's the ICM Trainer. It is some training software that lets you practice your decision-making in those vital push-or-fold spots late in the tournament, and I think you can do ICM calculations with it as well. Hasn't been updated in ages, but the math is still fresh.

Once again, make sure that you don't run this program while your Pokerstars client is open - it's prohibited, since it would theoretically allow you to make calculations mid-game. And remember to set the 'Hero Edge' slider to 0% before you practice, it always resets to 3% for some reason.

Let me know if you need some help setting it up, a lot of people have told me that their version's default language was German, for example.

And don't worry too much if you struggle a bit with things like the risk premium concept. Much like the ICM, those things mostly come down to instinct in an actual game. It should be enough to just have a basic understanding of the concept.

Thanks on another piece of good soft!

Yes, it was in German, no problem, I love German language. Thou switched it to English for convenience.

About risk premium...
I feel like it's just a 'scientific way' to put it.
Simply understanding stack-sizes is already a door into it. You just can't express it.
You see the opponent with big stack (comparing to own) to your left, you understand that at this point ain't pots going to played versus him/her. It's only all-in for you.
Since it's only all-in, you tight up to 4-6%, approximately. (Not taking blinds under consideration here) That itself has risk premium covered, without even knowing that there is a thing of such.
Sure, you can make a stone-cold bluff with 92o... Thou, is it a good play in long term? Probably not, since opponent is going to call you in hefty majority of the cases.

Size>options>conclusion>action
Where risk premium is more of
Size>options>conclusion+explanation>action

That explanation part extends the 'borders' where you are able to apply it. So definitely worth reading/knowing of.
That being said... At this point I can easily agree with you. Agree that basic understanding should be fine.
Also, I'm getting the feeling that in bounty tournaments its influence is softened, if not canceled out.

Please, let me know if any of it makes sense to you. Wishing to have a vision of poker that's close to reality.

Not sure if I follow your formula of "Size>options>conclusion>action", but either way, while there may be some math out there that would theoretically enable you to make perfect moves in any game, those calculations are usually impossible to do in the middle of a game, and even on a theoretical level, you can only rely on incomplete information (things like opponent's ranges can only be vaguely estimated), so there are always some variables that are missing or left ambiguous.

But that's why tools like the ICM Trainer exist, to give you an instinctive understanding of all the factors involved, so you can at least make an educated decision in a real game. Practically speaking, that should be all you need, you can always make the exact calculations after the game. I guess it's similar to how a lawyer doesn't need to know all the laws by heart, he just needs to know where to look them up when they become relevant.

I'm not completely familiar with the math of bounty tournaments, but it seems obvious that the potential of an instant bounty win could tip the odds in your favor in close spots, where the risk premium would usually make an all-in slightly unprofitable.

This ICM trainer is a super solid thing.
I was playing with it for an hour. Seems like a good way to practice something poker related when you can't really get to the game, maybe because of distractions or something.

There I can always comeback to the spot I have troubles in.
Can't thank you enough for it.

Glad you found it useful. So what are your scores for a 100 hands practice session?

I score about 63-73% depending on settings.

Gotta work on my ICM skills.

Unless you're working on specific spots, I generally recommend practicing with a full range of players and full hand ranges. Also, make sure to set the "Poker portal" to whatever is closest to the games you actually play. Chances are, the payout structures aren't really up to date anymore, but it should be close enough.

Now try and get that number up to 90%.

I guess PokerStars 9-handed is closest to games I play.
I appreciate the guidelines. Changed settings accordingly.

Working on!

Got it to 90!

Without 'Show players ranges' checked.
It tweaked the way I see these spots now.

Will keep practicing.

Nice one!

You should be able to have some decent success in SNGs with those kind of scores. Try to reach and maintain a score of >95%, and you'll probably be an overall winning player at the micros. The influence of variance can be big in these games, though, so don't despair if the results aren't there for a while, just keep focusing on making good plays.

Well, when I make mistake... I learn it for good.
From last session I learned that... If my opponent can react to my 3-bet either by going all-in or folding, I should all-in 3-bet to make him/her fold.
I knew it's important to all-in first of two.
I knew it... thou there was a hard way to remind me. He tanked for whole time of his and 4-bet all-in me holding 77. So, I call his all-in resulting a 50/50 flip (according to pokerstars' probability) which I lost. I held AhQh or smth of this nature.
Then I was nearly tilting out of the fact that I knew it, but execution gap came around to say 'Hello'.

From what I can see: I have 2 biggest problems.
1st one is heads up... I think I'm awful... I usually flip the game if I start behind, getting the lead, then I lose 2 big pots off (I guess) lack of respect from my opponent. And I'm done. I won't get into details of my 'heads up strategy', seems like not working. Maybe will create a new thread for it.

And 2nd one is my semi- and regular bluffs.
I'm entering the pot with an idea of 'well, if I face any confrontation - I fold'.
Does't work as well... I call the hell out of stack... I trick myself into thinking that I have something and just do it so terrible.

So, I have top pair on flop and there is an overcard on turn. I checked flop, so did opponent, then I shoot a solid bet on turn, representing this overcard (I was a bb, could do anything). Understanding that if I'm called I'm beat and river is check-fold.
Thou I see opponent reacting to my turn bet by all-in. I call and lose to him having a pair with this turn card.
I feel like an idiot. Keep making this mistake. Could easily fold, was planing to fold...
Other leaks that I see I plug 'em. This one remains:f_mad:

Playing heads-up can be a bit tricky, because it's a quite dynamic game and very opponent specific. Of course, if you get below a certain amount of chips relative to the blinds, you can just follow the ICM and play push-or-fold.

Generally, I think it's best to just keep it simple at the micros, and avoid any fancy moves when they're not necessary.

Also, there's another thing I forgot to mention. Our SNG coach CollinMoshman is doing a free live coaching stream over here every Wednesday at 20:00 CET. If you're available, feel free to check out the Poker streams tab around that time, or just take a look at the official forum thread.

Will certainly follow the stream from now on.
Especially, this time frame is super good for me.

Recently I started to note that usually I play heads up in SNG versus some good people. Meaning, I saw pretty solid (as far as I can judge) game from them before. So I try to avoid pots with them and then we are 1v1...

Feels very good to win those off. And not that sad to lose as well.

To extend, with all those things I read by your advice, getting the idea of who is 'worthy' for the top 3 and who isn't. Helps a lot to find 'targets'. it's tricky sometimes when I play in one of first 5 hands and I don't know players yet. So I roll with my usual way. Get beaten down and in fold/all-in mode till the end of the tournament. Sitting there and crying be cause I gambled my stack and now I can not outplay due to no fold equity.