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PokerStars changed the Five-card Draw ?

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Anykey444
Joined: 05.02.2011

I don't see any good reason for PS to use any trick of this kind. It's much more profitable for PS to be honest. Risks related to tricks are too high.


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Rihard4a
Joined: 08.09.2010

Originally posted by SonOfSonOfSpock

@Rihard4a

I didn't blame variance [what I did was even bigger] read what u1ker said, his a regular you are not, so STFU.

the most childish and insulting reply ever. I don't need to be a regular at 5CD to understand poker variance and card distribution. All you are complaining about is sole variance and nothing else. If you think PokerStars has influenced the card distribution in ONE specific game format, you are deluded and should seek medical assistance. Period.


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Super Moderator
VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010

I played about 500 hands this morning.
Trips 5 times or so and got no action on all but one, and lost that to a drawn straight.

Pat hands 3 times and played only 1. Two of them were in BB and got walks. I HATE THAT.

I then did other stuff for a while, and went back.
In the space of 2 orbits I was up 6 BB or so.

In all that time, if someone limped, they were trapping.[1]
No-one was 3Betting light (well, except me ) so like Bigpooch says, it is no longer a cakewalk.

Best of luck,
VS

[1] I love it when they limp then pat and get nothing but the blinds. Of course, had they raised, that is all they would likely have won anyway.


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Super Moderator
VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010

I was thinking more about this topic today, and realized that my winrate for FL $0.25/$0.50 is much lower than it used to be.

So I took the same graph I posted above, and separated out only the FL $0.25/$0.50 and FL $0.10/$0.20 hands.
The FL $0.10/$0.20 graph is as one would expect:

The FL $0.25/$0.50 graph however is quite a different story:

I think that this is a strong indication that it is the ability of the opponents at the higher limits that is making the difference.

Peace,
VS


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YohanN7
Joined: 15.06.2009

To OP: Spooky things do happen. They are supposed to happen sometimes, otherwise you should suspect the game being rigged. Among my spooky experiences are, first online hand EVER at FT (NL10 FR). Quads! An unrealistic amount of straight flushes when playing FL 6-max at WH versus robots. But overall, I think the RNG has treated me in no other way than any other.


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jbpatzer
Joined: 23.11.2009

I played live last night. Trust me, it's just as rigged as online. However, you also get the opportunity to get dealt AA first hand back after a break and discover that the button was in the wrong place, so it's a misdeal. Still waiting for that to happen online.


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SonOfSonOfSpock
Joined: 01.10.2011

You played live... Hold'em, right?

Anyway, you can see the cards, so it's different.


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sundancekid3
Joined: 09.01.2011

This thread is just ... :facepalm:

Like always - some players win and some players whine .

Originally posted by SonOfSonOfSpock

Guys just look at the limit 5-10 USD table that is currently on. How many full houses did you guys count? Insane. Enough to put 'alexxxandr83' tilting like a monkey and 'droseff' winning like never.

Yep that fish droseff never wins . Just put your bankroll at some of his tables and your problems are solved ...

And btw i am a regular you are not , so STFU !


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Super Moderator
VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010

I've been taking stabs at higher limits lately, so I've been watching tables for a while before sitting down.

I notice that quite often showdowns are between two large hands or two junk hands.

I see relatively few cases where a player calls a "bluff" with AAxxx and meets a flush, for example.

Again, I think that this points to the relative skill of the players, not some mystical "fixing"

Originally posted by sundancekid3
Yep that fish droseff never wins . Just put your bankroll at some of his tables and your problems are solved

Is that your screen name sundance? :coolface:

I do agree that droseff is one of the ones I watch. He is very good overall.

Oh -- and please let's keep the conversation polite.

Peace,
VS


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I agree with Vorpal

PokerStars has not changed 5CD somehow, but 5CD itself has become tougher because opponents have become stronger, tighter etc. as is the case in all of online poker now.

Even at 0.10/0.20, many hands now go 'raise, fold fold fold fold fold' and though there is the occasional limper who limps every draw or who limps shorts, you don't find those kinds of players that often anymore after all. And it's not just 5CD, you think limit hold'em, NL hold'em, sit and go's or omaha are now easier to beat than a few years ago? Don't think so :)

The answer to that is not to whine and complain but to study the game more, reflect on how to adapt your strategy to the actual game etc.

My impression of 5CD thus far is that most people with a hold'em background do not fully grasp how static 5CD is. Having the best hand predraw is what matters and should be aimed for, it's not like hold'em where there are still 5 cards to come and the player who is behind predraw has a higher chance to outdraw the player who is ahead. Nowadays people actually learn things the other way around: concepts such as playing on position, ranges, pot odds, and imo even tilt control that are important in all poker games and that are fundamental are best learnt in 5CD, not in hold'em.

Because having the best hand predraw is so important, you need to tighten up imo as soon as you notice signs that someone may have a better hand. This is not to say you have to play like a nit, but e.g. to 3-bet after a very early position raiser (assuming his range there is AA or maybe KKA unless you have notes indicating otherwise) personally I will only 3-bet there with two pair AA-XX, if the raise comes from the hijack probably QQ-XX. This may be too tight though. Also, when it gets 3-bet in front of you, in my (limited) experience thus far, even with AA-XX you're often in bad shape. I wonder if it were too tight or too far off to simply only play trips after a 3-bet in FL 5CD and drop the rest. Another thing that can get you in trouble is low two pairs. Just like in seven card stud, they suck and seem to be good only in certain situations and circumstances. Yes, they are good to open raise with and if you can get the blinds (as will happen quite often) that's good, but when you are reraised, you have to drop two low pairs if you ask me because it looks like more often than not you're in trouble.

On a side note, the beauty of 5CD imo is that 'you are on your own'. You don't have dozens of books, articles etc. to rely on as you have in hold'em. So it's all up to you, you need to work out your strategies, study the rare material available, do lots of thinking...and, important, think about transferring ideas from other forms of poker or from books that have nothing to do with 5CD and try and see if they work in 5CD too. Personally, I find The Theory of Poker a worthwhile (re)read and study. The concepts addressed in that book are universal and fundamental, it does not mind whether you play hold'em, razz, 5CD, you can always get an idea here and there from that book. Just to give one example I recently thought about and I simply hadn't used it in 5CD thus far: the overcall. In hold'em on the river, when someone bets before you and you think you have the best hand, your first instinct would tell you to raise your hand, however, when you have 2 players still behind you who may call too if you simply call but fold if you put in a raise, your expectation will be better if you simply call instead of raise as you will get more money in the pot by going for the overcall. This idea is found only in hold'em books but is perfectly applicable to the postdraw game of 5CD too.

And I'm sure there are many other ideas that work in other poker forms and that would also work in some way in 5CD too :)


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This is what could happen in 5 consecutive hands if players like to raise on straight draws:

PokerStars Hand #130221473567: 5 Card Draw Limit ($5/$10 USD) - 2015/02/09 15:41:09 ET
Table 'Merxia IV' 6-max Seat #5 is the button
DEALING HANDS
~eXacT~WnnR~: folds
vilkku_98: folds
MTails: folds
JoMon2010: raises $5 to $10
jon011: raises $5 to $15
PREDATOR9991: folds
JoMon2010: calls $5
jon011: stands pat
JoMon2010: discards 1 card
jon011: bets $10
JoMon2010: calls $10
SHOW DOWN
jon011: shows [6h 8d 5c 4s 7d] (a straight, Four to Eight)
JoMon2010: shows [4d 7h 8s 6s 5s] (a straight, Four to Eight)
jon011 collected $26.68 from pot
JoMon2010 collected $26.67 from pot
SUMMARY

PokerStars Hand #130221500250: 5 Card Draw Limit ($5/$10 USD) - 2015/02/09 15:41:31 ET
Table 'Merxia IV' 6-max Seat #6 is the button
DEALING HANDS
vilkku_98: raises $5 to $10
MTails: raises $5 to $15
JoMon2010: raises $5 to $20
Betting is capped
jon011: folds
PREDATOR9991: folds
~eXacT~WnnR~: folds
vilkku_98: calls $10
MTails: calls $5
vilkku_98: discards 1 card
MTails: stands pat
JoMon2010: discards 1 card
vilkku_98: checks
MTails: bets $10
JoMon2010: calls $10
vilkku_98: folds
SHOW DOWN
MTails: shows [6h 4d 5d 3d 7h] (a straight, Three to Seven)
JoMon2010: mucks hand
MTails collected $84.39 from pot
SUMMARY

PokerStars Hand #130221530187: 5 Card Draw Limit ($5/$10 USD) - 2015/02/09 15:41:56 ET
Table 'Merxia IV' 6-max Seat #1 is the button
DEALING HANDS
MTails: raises $5 to $10
JoMon2010: folds
jon011: raises $5 to $15
PREDATOR9991: folds
~eXacT~WnnR~: folds
vilkku_98: raises $5 to $20
Betting is capped
MTails: folds
jon011: calls $5
vilkku_98: discards 1 card
jon011: discards 1 card
vilkku_98: bets $10
jon011: calls $10
SHOW DOWN
vilkku_98: shows [5d 3c 3h 3d 5h] (a full house, Threes full of Fives)
jon011: mucks hand
vilkku_98 collected $69.84 from pot
SUMMARY

PokerStars Hand #130221561663: 5 Card Draw Limit ($5/$10 USD) - 2015/02/09 15:42:22 ET
Table 'Merxia IV' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
DEALING HANDS
JoMon2010: raises $5 to $10
jon011: folds
PREDATOR9991: raises $5 to $15
~eXacT~WnnR~: folds
vilkku_98: folds
MTails: folds
JoMon2010: calls $5
JoMon2010: discards 1 card
PREDATOR9991: discards 1 card
JoMon2010: bets $10
PREDATOR9991: raises $10 to $20
JoMon2010: calls $10
SHOW DOWN
PREDATOR9991: shows [Ad 8c Ah As 7s] (three of a kind, Aces)
JoMon2010: shows [6s 2c 5s 4s 3h] (a straight, Deuce to Six)
JoMon2010 collected $74.69 from pot
SUMMARY

PokerStars Hand #130221594354: 5 Card Draw Limit ($5/$10 USD) - 2015/02/09 15:42:49 ET
Table 'Merxia IV' 6-max Seat #3 is the button
DEALING HANDS
jon011: raises $5 to $10
PREDATOR9991: folds
~eXacT~WnnR~: folds
vilkku_98: folds
MTails: folds
JoMon2010: raises $5 to $15
jon011: calls $5
JoMon2010: stands pat
jon011: discards 1 card
JoMon2010: bets $10
jon011: calls $10
SHOW DOWN
JoMon2010: shows [5d 6d 7h 4s 8h] (a straight, Four to Eight)
jon011: shows [Qh Jh 9c Tc 8c] (a straight, Eight to Queen)
jon011 collected $50.44 from pot
SUMMARY


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SonOfSonOfSpock
Joined: 01.10.2011

Someone said "droseff" is bad? Most be kidding. I agree droseff was bad, now he his pretty good IMO. Just look how fast he jumped from 5-10 USD to 30-60 USD. He became a very good aggressive player.

About sundancesomething, I don't even know who the hell you are Mr. Regular.


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Coach
w34z3l
Joined: 03.08.2009

True story, I've taken every third day off and made millions.


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sundancekid3
Joined: 09.01.2011

Originally posted by SonOfSonOfSpock
Someone said "droseff" is bad? Most be kidding. I agree droseff was bad, now he his pretty good IMO. Just look how fast he jumped from 5-10 USD to 30-60 USD. He became a very good aggressive player.

About sundancesomething, I don't even know who the hell you are Mr. Regular.

I just love when random guys that never played a single hand above 1/2 , are so confident in their comments . How the f*ck you know when i was bad , and when i became good and aggressive ??!!

If you think that you know anything about how 5 card draw should be played - you don't ...
If you think that you know anything about the game of the regulars without ever played against them - you don't ...

Long story short - you are random fish , and it's very strange to read comments from random fishes acting like they know everything about the game .

And because you wouldn't guess it - my screen name is droseff.


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SonOfSonOfSpock
Joined: 01.10.2011

Of course I would guess it, you talk like him. How your earnings are going in Deuce to Seven, Mr. Regular? You are the small version of Ali, you talk to much and play to less [he punched to much]. Get a life Bosnian, I work to survive Mr. Regular. I have a use in the society. I play for fun, like 80% of the poker players farting around. Put me in jail for it. BTW since you are here, tell me want is the deal with you and MTails waiting for the 3rd player.


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sundancekid3
Joined: 09.01.2011

Originally posted by SonOfSonOfSpock
Of course I would guess it, you talk like him. How your earnings are going in Deuce to Seven, Mr. Regular? You are the small version of Ali, you talk to much and play to less [he punched to much]. Get a life Bosnian, I work to survive Mr. Regular. I have a use in the society. I play for fun, like 80% of the poker players farting around. Put me in jail for it. BTW since you are here, tell me want is the deal with you and MTails waiting for the 3rd player.

Keep working to survive and post less about things u don't know and don't understand .


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Super Moderator
VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010

Hi, sundancekid3, and SonOfSonOfSpock,
As a moderator, I have to say, "please keep the conversation civil".
Thanks.
VS

As a 5-Card Draw player, though, I don't know that I've ever played either of you.
I have watched droseff, though, I've seen some big wins and a few fair-sized losses.

I'm not able to judge "good" or not just from watching a few sessions -- especially heads-up which is mostly what I see you play lately.

I wish you both the best of luck, though!
VS


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SonOfSonOfSpock
Joined: 01.10.2011

You know Sundance/droseff or who the crap you are, you remind me of one thing. Once Bratishev was playing against TabberNackle and after he smashed Tabber he asked him:

«Where did you learn how to play this game? I'm having huge luck, you are a great player.»

Tabber just said: «I'm been here longer then anyone else.»

I knew Tabber, but I just didn't had the bankroll to play him, and I remember the first time I saw you at the tables. I don't know what are your expectations have living, having a family, kids or something, but raising kids based on a income that comes from poker especially five-card draw shouldn't be a great advice.


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Hello guys it makes me happy to see that u all play 5card draw im looking for people to talk about strategys etc. Im new to 5card draw i play FL 0.10/0.20 on pokerstars if someone wants to learn with me or help me then plz add me in com-Tool.


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svonja
Joined: 27.05.2010

i never liked other poker variations, texas holdem rules and i recommended to everyone


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