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True rakeback vs advertised rakeback

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VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010
PVI Explained

(I hope -- this is what I could glean from several other sites -- but there is no way to tell at this point if they are correct)

PVI Stands for "Player Value Index"
GGPoker's advertised rake chart for each game is easy to find:
On the "House Rules" page use the drop-down "Games" to select the game to view.
Example: Texas Hold'em

These charts show the amount taken from the pot and -- as far as I can tell are correct. I compared the amount shown by PokerTracker as "rake" to the amounts in the charts, and they were almost exactly correct.

When you win a pot, you win everyone's contribution to the pot, minus the rake, the same as every other poker site.

On almost all other poker sites, you get credit for the rake in proportion to the amount you contributed to the pot.
So in a $10 pot, with $1 rake if 1 player put in $5 and two others put in $2.50 each, one player would be credited with $0.50, and the other two would be credited with $0.25
PokerStars uses this system -- or did -- I didn't verify this.

Not on GGPoker.
On GGPoker the PVI determines how much of that $1 is credited to you.
A player with a very low PVI may get $0.01 and a player with a very high PVI may get much more.

The cashback (not really rakeback) is based on the total of rake credited to you using the PVI formula -- which no-one knows.

Sites like PokerStars -- although they may divide the rake proportionally -- they assign the reward points for the rake preferentially to some players.

Would it be possible to calculate backwards to find your PVI?
Would it work if you played a single session until you had earned a Fish Buffet spin.
You would then know how much rake you had been credited with: If you won the lowest (10%) and received $1 you would know that you had been credited with $10 rake.
You could then download your hand histories, and use PT4 to find the total rake from all pots into which you had contributed some $
You would then know what your PVI was for that session

You can also calculate as follows (thanks Kyyberi)

You can calculate your PVI by checking your points total and balance before the session. After the session you cansee from your balance how much you have won/lost. Compare that to PokerCraft won/loss amount. The difference is your rake. Now compare that to your points total from the session. Points divided by rake, divided by 100 is your PVI.

Since PVI is calculated after each session, it would be different next time anyway.

Some other site (sorry, can't link, since they're PokerStrategy.com competitors) have mentioned the following factors that may influence PVI
Since no-one knows for certain, this is largely speculation
:diamond:  pot size
:diamond:  swing (winning and losing large pots in the same session)
:diamond:  jackpot wins ?
:diamond:  tournament overlays, buy-in, skill
:diamond:  blind level (4 groups -- Featured, High, Medium, Low)
:diamond:  Deposits (good for PVI) and Withdrawals (bad for PVI)
:diamond:  Volume (# of hands played)
:diamond:  PVI is updated after each session.
:diamond:  You have a different PVI for each game (hold'em omaha, short-deck) and each type (cash, tournament, all-in-or-fold)

If you know of any factual errors (or things I've left out) in this -- and bear in mind that most of this is speculation -- please let me know, and I'll correct this post or add to it.

Cheers,
VS


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Coach
Kyyberi
Joined: 09.07.2010

Not sure if PVI changes from session to session. And it doesn't affect the Fish Buffet spins. I think you have misunderstood it.

PVI is a multiplier that is applied to your rake for calculating Fish Buffet points. I am not sure if it affects the rake that is allocated as yours, like if you need to rake for a bonus or promotion.

If your PVI is 1 (everyone has this when they create an account), then raking $1 gives you 100 Fish Buffet points. If your PVI is 0,5 then raking $1 gives you 50 Fish Buffet points. Once you gain the amount required for the spin, you can do the spin. Probabilities for different amounts you can win can be found from GG website, and those probabilities are not affected by PVI at all.

You can calculate your PVI by checking your points total and balance before the session. After the session you cansee from your balance how much you have won/lost. Compare that to PokerCraft won/loss amount. The difference is your rake. Now compare that to your points total from the session. Points divided by rake, divided by 100 is your PVI.

As far as I know, PVI is lower for those who play the highest volume (grinders, who are not welcome to GG). You don't have to be a winner. If Vorpal has some links that offer reliable information for the things he mentioned, please send them to me in Skype so I can check them out.


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Super Moderator
VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010

Originally posted by Kyyberi
Not sure if PVI changes from session to session. And it doesn't affect the Fish Buffet spins. I think you have misunderstood it.

This information came from a different poker site -- as I said, much of this is speculation.
Whether PVI is calculated at the beginning or end doesn't matter much, unless it changes a lot.

Originally posted by Kyyberi
PVI is a multiplier that is applied to your rake for calculating Fish Buffet points. I am not sure if it affects the rake that is allocated as yours, like if you need to rake for a bonus or promotion.

Good point. The effect on fish buffet points would be the same in either case.
You're right -- it doesn't have an effect how the spin result, only an the number of points you accumulated.
I've not seen any speculation on how PVI applies to bonuses.

Originally posted by Kyyberi
You can calculate your PVI by checking your points total and balance before the session. After the session you cansee from your balance how much you have won/lost. Compare that to PokerCraft won/loss amount. The difference is your rake. Now compare that to your points total from the session. Points divided by rake, divided by 100 is your PVI.

I added this to my previous post.

Originally posted by Kyyberi
As far as I know, PVI is lower for those who play the highest volume (grinders, who are not welcome to GG). You don't have to be a winner. If Vorpal has some links that offer reliable information for the things he mentioned, please send them to me in Skype so I can check them out.

I'll send the links I used. I've also added volume as a factor -- in the previous post.


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Coach
Kyyberi
Joined: 09.07.2010

Got them. My pvi was dropped to 0,3 more or less at GG when I was multitabling. Didn't even have huge overall volume, but when I played I had 10-12 cash tables usually running. Was losing for about 20 buyins over a month. That makes me think the algorithm attacks high volume, multitabling grinders.


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Originally posted by Kyyberi
Got them. My pvi was dropped to 0,3 more or less at GG when I was multitabling. Didn't even have huge overall volume, but when I played I had 10-12 cash tables usually running. Was losing for about 20 buyins over a month. That makes me think the algorithm attacks high volume, multitabling grinders.

As far as i know it does attack winning players and high volume grinders.


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patience23
Joined: 07.11.2008

Yesterday i paid 41$ Rake for 2100 hands ShortDeckNL5 (after Jackpots).
Fish Buffet Rakeback ~ 2$.

Thats ~38BB/100. And ~ 5% rakeback.


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Targetme
Joined: 04.05.2009

ouff I didnt know about this. is it still a thing? I play a very high rake thing and just got the 35% rakeback reward


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efkay
Joined: 25.03.2005

still a thing it only gets worse


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Targetme
Joined: 04.05.2009

when you come back to poker after years only to find out your getting buttfucked in ways you didnt even imagine. Off to poker apps


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mcbunjo
Joined: 24.07.2013

Hi guys, happened to me the same thing. after playing spinandgold for 10days, multitabling 2-3h 4tables a day buy in 1$, i am down to 11%rake. I am not sure if happened after hitting 240x multiplier. Really sucks. Hope i can get my money withdrawn as quickly as possible.

To good to be true with all of the daily rewards.


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Tak3r
Joined: 30.07.2007

Also just noticed that the Rake is insane, just finished a NL25 session with around 1000 hands and 30$ winnings, but my bankroll from before and after the session just increased by 10$ with 5$ of it coming from my welcome bonus. Something seems REALLY off here.


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Super Moderator
VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010

Originally posted by MrWakett1
Also just noticed that the Rake is insane, just finished a NL25 session with around 1000 hands and 30$ winnings, but my bankroll from before and after the session just increased by 10$ with 5$ of it coming from my welcome bonus. Something seems REALLY off here.

In this post https://forums.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?postid=3197676#post3197676 there are links to the actual rake tables.
It is a real eye-opener when you start to realize the cost of playing poker on any site.

If you have PokerTracker 4 you can download the hand histories from GGPoker, and get a bit better feeling for how much rake you actually pay.
I really cannot understand why GGPoker ignores rake in their pokercraft graphs -- it made the rake cost stand out much, much more than it would have it they showed after-rake income.


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efkay
Joined: 25.03.2005

@Vorpal since when does rake paid show up in GG HH/pt?


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Super Moderator
VorpalF2F
Joined: 02.09.2010

Originally posted by efkay
@Vorpal since when does rake paid show up in GG HH/pt?

Quite true -- it doesn't.
PT4 calculates it based on the published rake percentages linked previously.


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Coach
Kyyberi
Joined: 09.07.2010

Maybe GG thought that as in tournament tracking only cashes are calculated, they make the same in their graph. Why not just calculate hands where hero has won? :f_drink::f_love:


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ChillingRabbit275
Joined: 20.07.2010

Can anybody explain to me What is PVI? What you guys think is better 20% of cashback every week or gamble for higher cashback?


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Coach
Kyyberi
Joined: 09.07.2010

PVI is explained in the beginning of this thread.


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cesures
Joined: 08.07.2021

It is a real eye-opener when you start to realize the cost of playing poker on any site.

After ten years and 20k posts. Not bad. It is the choice of the poker community, and for that reason, it is ridiculous when someone complains about the high rake, and this and that.


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nsavov
Joined: 24.09.2010

What does that "None" and "Unlimited" mean? That we always get 20% (multiplied by the PVI ofc) on top of any spins we may or may not manage to get?


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Originally posted by nsavov

What does that "None" and "Unlimited" mean? That we always get 20% (multiplied by the PVI ofc) on top of any spins we may or may not manage to get?

You can accept the 20% flat cashback which means you dont achieve spins anymore you just receive the 20% weekly cashback in to your account.You need to do some homework on the PVI sytem though because no matter which you choose your likely getting far less than the advertised Rakbeack unless your a losing player and regular depositor.


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