Harrier's Blog - Mixed Games & Mixed Drinks

Nice hand!

I played some NLH to help my bankroll on that site.
If you remember that at the low stakes, it plays like play money games, you should do OK

OFC bankroll update: 109 chips

We are still alive!

One annoying thing tonight was that I actually made a misclick once... Somehow my cards must have slipped when I wanted to place them in the slot, but I didn't notice, assumed they were where I wanted them to be, and clicked to confirm my hand.

It was a costly one too, not that it would have changed to much about today's overall results.

I seem to do a lot better in heads-up situations, though, so I will probably focus of those and leave the table once a third player joins. Maybe I'll survive a couple more days that way.

It has been a while since we've had some mixed drinks in here, hasn't it?

Those were some of the drinks from the Grindette's latest visit. I had a classic (or slightly infamous) Long Island Iced Tea, while Prim had a variation of it, the Tokyo Tea.

Unfortunately, I didn't remember to take some photos until we've both had a few sips already. I guess we were thirsty.

For the Long Island Iced Tea, you need a pretty well stocked liquor drawer, but once you have all the ingredients, it's pretty simple to prepare.

Just fill a highball glass with ice and add the following ingredients:

15 ml of gin
15 ml of tequila
15 ml of rum
15 ml of vodka
15 ml of triple sec
20 ml of sugar syrup
30 ml of lemon juice

...and top the rest off with some coke, then stir. For a guide on how to make sugar syrup at home, refer to this older post by me, it's actually quite simple, and you surely have all the ingredients at home already.

The Tokyo Tea is a variation that involves some Midori melon liqueur. I've seen a few different recipes for it before, but for the simplest, yet effective version, simply add 15 ml each of all the booze you would normally use in a Long Island Iced Tea (gin, tequila, rum, vodka, triple sec) and add another 15 ml of Midori, then top the rest off with some lemon-lime soda.

Some people use slightly different ratios, and some like to use sweet and sour mix and top it off with plain club soda. I don't see the point, might as well use some lemon-lime soda instead, it's much simpler.

We didn't bother with the decorations this time, I didn't have any fruits at home anyway, but normally, you would garnish the Long Island Iced Tea with a lemon wheel. The Tokyo Tea could be garnished with a slice of a lime, a kiwifruit, or both.

If you're making those at home, enjoy them carefully. They are deceptively sweet and refreshing, but if you gulp them down too quickly on a hot day, you might be in for a surprise...

Is there a Short Island Ice Tea
I'm surprised that there is no tea in it.

It used to be very popular in the bar at the motel where I worked in the early '90s, but I've never had one.

I got curious about the name, and found this:
https://theculturetrip.com/north-america/usa/new-york/articles/the-story-behind-the-long-island-iced-tea/

Since it is just a wild internet post, I have no idea how accurate it is of course.
That story -- along with an alternate is also on the Wikipedia entry: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Long_Island_iced_tea

I'd try one, but I'm off alcohol these days...

All I know about the origin of the Long Island Iced Tea is that it's heavily disputed.

I'll gladly just drink it.

Originally posted by Harrier88
All I know about the origin of the Long Island Iced Tea is that it's heavily disputed.

I'll gladly just drink it.
What is the point of having drinks if there's nothing to ̶a̶r̶g̶u̶e̶ ̶a̶b̶o̶u̶t̶  discuss

guys I'm well confused here is seat 1 a fish or a genius?

PokerStars, $3.92 + $0.48 - Badugi Pot Limit - 125/250 - 7 players
Replay this hand on Upswing Poker

UTG: 3,000 (12 bb)
MP: 6,852 (27 bb)
MP+1: 12,201 (49 bb)
CO: 8,262 (33 bb)
BU (Hero): 4,838 (19 bb)
SB: 2,250 (9 bb)
BB: 3,625 (15 bb)

Deal: (375) Hero is BTN with A♠ T♦ 4♥ 5♠
2 players fold, MP+1 calls 250, 1 fold, Hero calls 250, 1 fold, BB checks

Draw One: (875) A♠ 4♥ J♣ Q♦ (3 players)
BB draws 1, MP+1 draws 1, BU (Hero) draws Td 5s
BB checks, MP+1 checks, Hero bets 875, BB calls 875, MP+1 folds

Draw Two: (2,625) A♠ 4♥ J♣ Q♦ (2 players)
BB draws 1, BU (Hero) stands pat
BB checks, Hero bets 2,625, BB calls 2,500 (all-in)

Draw Three: (7,750) A♠ 4♥ J♣ Q♦ (2 players, 1 all-in)
BB stands pat, BU (Hero) stands pat

Total pot: 7,625

Showdown:
BU (Hero) shows A♠ 4♥ J♣ Q♦ (a Badugi: Q,J,4,A)
BB shows 6♥ 4♣ 6♦ 2♥ (a 3-card: 6,4,2)
BU (Hero) wins 7,625

Originally posted by adasko99
guys I'm well confused here is seat 1 a fish or a genius?
It's true that you'll occasionally meet players who have no idea how to play Badugi in a tournament. They used to be a little more common, but they still show up from time to time. If you ever encounter one of them making a nonsensical showdown (that clearly wasn't a snowing attempt), make a quick mental note, be alert, and target the heck out of them. In general, look out for people who join close to the end of late reg (you can identify them by their stack, which should be at or close to the starting amount), they are most likely to be such a player. You can't be sure of it, of course, but I tend to treat their raises with less respect than otherwise.

That being said, BB in this hand was very likely not one of them. First of all, their stack indicates that they have won a few hands before (not necessarily proof, as even a player who is ignorant of the rules may very well have won a few non-showdowns). The general way they played this hand also suggests that they should know what they are doing. An ignorant player would have stood on big cards instead, possibly a "flush" or something with big pairs or trips. Their behavior of drawing one to a 642 up to the last draw is completely in line with the way Badugi is played.

As for the reason they stood pat on the last draw, it could have been a misclick, but in my opinion, it may actually have been a calculated move on their part. They may have put you on a high Badugi - which is what you had - and may have figured that you might be willing to break it, since your QJ4A would have been in bad shape against most genuine made Badugis. They had a reason to believe you had a high Badugi too, since you were drawing two cards before hitting it. It would be more likely that you had any kind of Badugi, rather than a good one.

The fact that you immediately bet the pot after hitting your draw also suggested that you were trying to either get people out of the hand while you are ahead or trying to put them all-in while they are still drawing, both being a sign of a higher, more vulnerable Badugi. Many people who hit a monster hand like 643A in that situation (another very real possibility of an opponent drawing two, as they should be expected to draw to very low cards) would have played it a little slower instead, trying to keep people in the pot and ideally having them hit a worse Badugi.

So BB is definitely much more likely to be a genius than a fish, but possibly neither.

sick play
poor guy is stuck at the micros because of people like me who just tilt pat Q Dugis anyway

Originally posted by adasko99
sick play
poor guy is stuck at the micros because of people like me who just tilt pat Q Dugis anyway
As I always say, if you have a highish Badugi, either play it fast, or don't play it at all, so it's all good.

In your situation, keeping that Q-Badugi was the right move either way. You had a J to accompany the Q, and if your opponent really had had a decent Badugi there, you would have been in bad shape with a J-Badugi too. So the only reasonable thing to draw to would have been the 4A, and the chances of improving to something that would beat a genuinely good hand while drawing two on the last draw would have been so low that you would be better off patting and hoping that your opponent either stood on a K-Badugi or either misclicked or bluffed - one of which they clearly did here.

If you had had three low cards along with your Q, then you would have had a decision on your hand, because if your opponent really has a good hand, it's your only hope. It's still a long shot, with you being 21% to improve to any Badugi (actually 19% here since the Q would be a dead out), and 10% to improve to an 8 or better, but not impossible. Of course, you could still pat and hope for the aforementioned K, misclick or bluff from your opponent, but it's no longer the only reasonable option. In my experience, though, aside from a few known players, most people seem to play in a relatively straightforward way in those Badugi tournaments, so I don't think bluffcatching is worth it in the majority of times, generally speaking. Still, the chances of them bluffing etc might be higher than the chances of you drawing and beating a real hand in such a situation, so that's what this decision would have been about.

Besides, there currently are no higher Badugi stakes on Stars aside from occasional events, so we're all stuck in the micros, no matter what we do.

We've had our mixed drinks, and even an interesting Badugi discussion, so let's get back to business.

My break from the regular tournaments has continued, with more focus on mahjong until about a week ago. and of course the new Open Faced Chinese Poker games. And combined with the previously poor results in my poker tournaments, I think it's fair to speak of a little crisis. Mahjong has suffered quite a bit as well:

As for OFC/P, I've been talking about my misadventures, and my bankroll had sunk down to 80-something since my last post, quickly approaching bankruptcy.

Originally posted by Harrier88
They are enjoyable nonetheless, and feel a lot less stressful than standard versions of poker with betting and all.

That's what I wrote about those games when I started out, and didn't even know what I didn't know. As I tried to play a little more seriously, I found that those games can not only be stressful, but sometimes downright infuriating. But that's what happens when you don't know enough about your games to have a real plan for a +EV game. You can only hope to get lucky, and may easily get stressed out when you don't. I mentioned it before, it was just like when I got started with poker - I was just gambling, nothing else.

I also said before that even if this fails, maybe I can at least give myself a pat on the back for being adventurous enough to try something new. Well, it may have been a bold move to jump into these games like that, but with what little knowledge I had it was mostly one thing: pretty foolish.

This has all changed, however. In the last few days, I have continued my hiatus from the regular grind to focus on improving in OFC/P, and by now, I'd say the difference is like night and day. I have learned all the royalties, which really isn't that hard once you learn a simple trick, understand the scoring rules (believe it or not, I didn't when I started out), and I have collected a nice series of strategy articles from a blog. A lot of this focuses on opening moves, on which I have now taken a bunch of study notes too. I heard that there's even an entire book in the works about the subject.

It paid off so far. While I had been getting crushed pretty consistently before, the session I played the other day went a little better, where I made gains in the beginning, but unfortunately ended up losing later when my concentration was waning - I was playing a Courchevel freeroll on that site at the same time, shouldn't have done it, even though I cashed. Still, the losses weren't as bad anymore, and I later won it back when I played another game which was joined by one player who made some questionable moves, paying both me and my other opponent off. I used to be that kind of player...

Today, I played another game, and for the first time, I had some decent winnings to report, putting my bankroll back over 100 chips. Still a long way to go to even reach the level where I started, and the risk of ruin is still considerable, but finally some good results.

I'll keep going and keep improving, and by now, I wouldn't even mind reloading if I had to, because really... it's a matter of pride at that point. It may sound petty, but then again, that's pretty much how I got started in regular poker too.

A whole new world awaits!
I think I'll give OFC a pass. I have far fewer brain cells operating that 10 years ago, and I'd like to save 'em for PLO -- the real one, not the PLO8 one

Check it out...

Now that was a well spent trip to Fantasyland.

While we're at it, why don't we take this opportunity to learn how the game is scored, just like I did last weekend?

Let's start with the royalties. As I explained in a previous post, those are extra points you get just for completing a certain hand. You guys might be familiar with the payouts in video poker, for example...

Well, it works a bit like this. When I started out with OFC, I didn't bother learning all of these royalties by heart, but as it turns out, it is absolutely necessary to play this game with any kind of decent strategy. It's all about winning money, isn't it? Well, how are you supposed to do that if you don't even know which hands win you how much money? How can you possibly weigh the risks and rewards of your decisions?

A full table of the royalties in Open Faced Chinese Poker can be found in the spoiler below, but don't worry, it's not necessary to learn all of them by heart, there's a much easier way to remember them.

What you would need to remember is this: In the back row, there's 2 points for a straight, 4 points for a flush, and 6 point for a full house. Simple enough, just 2, 4, 6.

The next set for the back row is 10 for quads, 15 for a straight flush and 25 for a Royal Flush. 10, 15, 25, also not too hard.

For the middle row, take those same numbers you just remembered, and simply multiply them by 2, and you got the royalties for those hands. The only thing you need to remember in addition to that is that trips now also pay 2 points, same as the lowest royalty in the back row.

The front row royalties are also not as hard to learn as they seem. For a pair, simply subtract 5 from the face value of the cards in your pair, and you got your royalty. 6-5=1, so a pair of sixes pays one point in royalties. 77 pays 2, 88 pays 3, and so on. Jacks, Queens, Kings and Aces need to be counted as 11, 12, 13 and 14, respectively, to continue the sequence. A pair of aces, for example, would pay 9 points in royalties (14-5=9).

The royalties for trips in the front row can be worked out in a similar way. Instead of subtracting 5, just add 8 instead. Trip deuces therefore pay 10 points (2+8=10), trip 3s pay 11, and at the very end, trip aces, the best possible hand in that row, pay a whopping 22 points (14+8=22). That's almost as much as a royal flush in the back row.

These royalties are paid out every time you get one of those hands in a qualifying OFC hand. If your opponent also qualifies for a royalty in that row, though, the points offset each other. Let's take a closer hand at that nifty Royal Flush hand I just posted:

You see those '+1' or '-1' signs next to my opponent's and my own hand, marked in blue? Those are simply the payments for winning that particular line. You always get one point for each of the three rows you win, already earning us three points here.

Next, there's the '+3' or '-3' sign next to our player names, marked in red. This is an extra three point payment that occurs as a bonus for scooping your opponent by winning all three rows. So while winning two out of three rows earns you only one point (1+1-1), winning all three earns you six points (1+1+1+3).

Now come the royalties, marked in yellow, and this is where it gets good. My opponent has a flush in the back row, earning them 4 points. We have trips in the middle row, earning 2 points, and a nice Royal Flush in the back row for an amazing 25 points. As you can see, my opponent had to pay the 2 points for the trips in the middle in full, since they don't have a hand that qualifies for royalties in that row. As for the back row, our royalties offset, so my opponent may subtract the 4 points for their flush from my 25 points for the Royal, and as a result, only has to pay 21 points for that line.

Put all of that together, and you get a final score of +29 points for me, and -29 points for my opponent. It's 1 point for each of the three rows we won, 3 points as a bonus for scooping, 2 points for the trips in the middle and 21 points for the Royal Flush that has been offset slightly by our opponent's regular flush.

Confused why the numbers right next to our chip amount say '23' and '-23' instead? Well, that's just the score for the entire round at that point. Previously, I was at -6 while my opponent was at +6, so those are our new scores after this 29 points hand.

At the end of each round (where every player has had the dealer button once), the point scores are then converted into currency based on the stakes your playing, and the money is exchanged. At my stake, that would be just a quarter of a millionth of a bitcoin per point, but high rollers may attach hundreds or even thousands of real dollars to each point in their games.

All of this may sound complicated, but as I have found out the hard way, gaining an understanding for this way of scoring is absolutely crucial in order to have any success in this game.

You got all of this, more or less? Let's look at another hand from that same session then, when a third player joined the action:

So what happened? Let's start with the royalties again. Snipez has another flush in the back, worth 4 points, while I have a full house in the back, worth 6 points. Jimmy777, meanwhile, has fouled his hand by failing to have his middle row beat his top row, resulting in an automatic scoop against both of us (that would be the +6 next to Snipez's and my name - three points for the three lines and another three point scooping bonus). As a result, Jimmy doesn't qualify for any royalties, even though the pair of aces in the top row would normally earn a 9 point royalty in a legal hand.

Next come the actual hands. Again, Jimmy777's hand has fouled and has already been accounted for with the 6 point payments, so that leaves Snipez and me. Snipez's KQ6 beats my J52 in the top row, so that's one point for them. Their two pair tens and nines also beats my pair of sevens in the middle row, earning them another point. My full house Kings over 3s beats their 9-high flush in the back, though, earning me one point and denying them the three point bonus for scooping.

So when it comes to hands alone, we made a slight loss against Snipez, but now come the royalties. My full house earns 6 points, offset by Snipez's flush for 4 points, resulting in a 2 points profit over them. Subtract the one point we lost for the three lines, and we still slightly come out on top, with a one point lead.

Jimmy777, however, who has fouled, also needs to pay off our royalties, and since he doesn't qualify for any, he has to do it in full. That's 6 points for my full house, resulting in a total profit of 8 points in royalty payments for me (6 points from Jimmy777 plus 2 points from Snipez), and another 4 points for Snipez's flush. As as result, Snipez still earned 2 points in royalty payments, after paying out 2 to me and earning 4 from Jimmy.

As it says in those boxes, Jimmy lost 12 points against me in total (6 points royalties plus 6 points for the automatic scoop) and 10 points against Snipez (4 points royalties plus 6 points scoop). Meanwhile, Snipez has lost one point against me as I explained above.

Put it all together, and you get the total point earnings for this hand:

Jimmy777: -22 (-12 vs me, -10 vs Snipez)
Harrier88: +13 (+12 vs Jimmy777, +1 vs Snipez)
Snipez: +9 (+10 vs Jimmy777, -1 vs me)

And that's how you score an OFC hand.

Originally posted by Harrier88
All of this may sound complicated, but as I have found out the hard way, gaining an understanding for this way of scoring is absolutely crucial in order to have any success in this game.

Or any game!

Thanks for the superbly detailed explanation of the scoring!

I'll admit I still don't know how exactly mahjong is scored. But that's not a huge problem, because it doesn't change your strategy too much, and you can still instinctively work out what to go for. After a while, you get a vague idea about which hands are worth how much, which is pretty much all you need to know. It's common in home games to have only one "resident scorekeeper".

It only came back to bite me when a played a freeroll 1-2 months ago, where the 1st place in each group of four players advances. I was slightly trailing behind 1st place at that time and went for a cheap hand, expecting the score to be enough to overtake my opponent. Turned out I fell slightly short, and so I missed the next round despite winning my hand as planned. Had I known the exact scoring requirements, I could have played for a bigger hand. I may not have gotten it, but the taking the risk to go for it obviously would have been a better choice than winning with a lesser hand and being guaranteed to lose the round anyway.

To be fair, this was also the regular four player version, which I don't usually play. My standard mahjong cash games are three-handed.

OFC/P was a massive rollercoaster today... Huge swings in both directions, with me finishing slightly on the losing side in the end. My bankroll is still above 100, at least, leaving me a little bit of elbow room, even if it's not too much.

Despite all the variance, I found out that if you catch an unskilled player at your table, you can really expect to take them to the cleaners in this game if you know some basic strategy. Well, I kind of found that one out before too, when I was that kind of player. It's nice that I can now also occasionally be on the winning side of this kind of matchup by this point.

I do know some players I'd rather avoid by now too, but probably the biggest loss occurred vs a previously unknown player, who did seem to know what she's doing, but who also may have just hit an extremely hot deck tonight. Jimmy777 also took his revenge for being on the losing side of my example hand.

Still gaining experience, and at least I'm not getting crushed overall anymore.

Yo! Sick royal NH!
It's worth calculating the EV of remaining in fantasy land with with trips on top, A high straight in the middle and flush on the bottom.
You would get 11+1 on top, 4+1 middle, and 0+1 on bottom + 3 for the scoop
21 points and you will remain in fantasy. The question is - is fantasy really worth 9 points? I read atm that it's worth somewhere between 9 and 12 so it's not a huge mistake if any

Edit: scratch that, Im dumb... apparently with quads+ on the bottom you remain in fantasy ♦

Originally posted by nsavov
apparently with quads+ on the bottom you remain in fantasy ♦

That's right, and at least on my site, a full house or better in the middle will also let you stay in fantasyland for one more hand. This might just be a house rule, though, other articles don't mention it.

But you are right, trips on top are always very good, often making it worth it to break quads at the bottom. Even the worst trips on top would earn the same royalties as quads in the back, and good trips may earn twice as much. Your opponents are also extremely unlikely to beat them, so you will usually have a better chance of scooping too, than if you went with quads in the back and some crappy high cards that didn't fit anywhere else at the top.

As for the value of fantasyland, a series of strategy articles that I have read put it at about 8 points, so it's usually worth going for it. My fantasylands in my last session were pretty depressing, though, often giving me nothing but a bunch of pairs with not even some flush or straight possibilities. I sometimes ended up getting scooped by an opponent who had to play normally.

You seem to know a thing or two about OFC, are you playing yourself?