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[Closed] Top pair on turn, got check/raised; How to act?

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abnaxis
Joined: 10.05.2009

Known players:
[tg]Position_Stack:hands/vp$ip/RaisePreflop/AF/WTS/ORL/BBvsSteal/W$SD;BB$10:376/18/15/2.1/48/38/75/70;UTG2$18:31/48/13/1.1/38/0/0/50;MP1$1,1:20/85/20/3.2/35/0/-/33;Hero$15,2:///////;[/tg]
0,25/0,5 Fixed-Limit Hold'em (8 handed)
Hand recorder used for this poker hand: PokerStrategy.com Elephant 0.102 by www.pokerstrategy.com.

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with A♥, Q♣
UTG2 calls, MP1 raises, MP2 folds, Hero 3-bets, 3 folds, BB calls, UTG2 calls, MP1 calls.

Flop: (12,40 SB) Q♠, 8♠, 2♥ (4 players)
BB checks, UTG2 checks, MP1 checks, Hero bets, BB calls, UTG2 folds, MP1 raises (All-In), Hero calls, BB calls.

Turn: (8,30 BB) 9♠ (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets, BB raises, Hero calls.

River: (12,30 BB) T♣ (3 players)
BB bets, Hero calls.

Final Pot: 14,30 BB

Ok, everything is fine and dandy untill the turn. That is where i get a bit lost in these kind of situations. And i have a few questions regarding them and this hand is a perfect example.

Now i dont know, if it's just the limits im playing or at the platform im on. But i really really rarely get bluffed (or even semi-bluffed) with a check/raise on the turn. And although i'm beginning to play a bit more tight when it happens, i still feel like im seeing the showdown a bit to much when it happens. Like in this situation right here.

When he checks the turn i do a standard value bet and also defend my hand a bit, since it became way to connected and same suited. I feel checking behind is not an option here. But, after he raises i'm having a hard time deciding what to do here.

I think im beat most of the time, caus i have a hard time seeing him raise with anything worse than what i have. Apart from maybe top/middle/bottom pairs with good spades alongside them. But even these hands, most people would just call behind passivelly. But can i just simply fold here? I can't, right?

I went into a calldown (sort of way behind/way ahead) mode during the game, but after evaluating i'm still not entirely sure what is the correct way to play here. Folding doesn't seem right, but on the other hand i can't see myself ahead way to often either.

So yeah, any advice on this hand is really apreciated. And if it's not too much trouble also some advice on check/raised turns in general, caus i have a feeling i'm calling it down with a top pair/overpair way to much (and am usually behind already).

Thanks in advance and have fun

Abnaxis


4 replies
ZeroDegrees
Joined: 03.06.2008

Flop is an easy 3-bet, your call messes everything up. The rest I leave to the judges.
About c/r'd turn: The general rule of thumb is villains have at least 2 pairs I think. But, it depends ofc on the session; tilted, bluffer, your image (had to fold many turns, fish) and number of opponents. And even when you're sure villain has 2 pairs you may still have odds for a call. In a blind battle or button steal situation, a checkraise on turn goes down in respect. Just made 2 call downs in that situation against a TAG with AQ, AK high and won and I regard villain as a relatively good player. Not to uncommon with c/r turn as a bluff in those places. But that's shorthanded, but it happens in full ring too.

I give my opinion on the turn to anyway. I think you're drawing dead. Flush and straight draw got there. However, there are 11 BB's in the pot and you have to pay 2 to get 11-12 and you have to win 1 in 7 to call down profitably. Don't think you have that. Have to stop now so the judge won't have to correct so much;).

To summarize: 1. Always 3-bet flop there 2. Treat checkraises on turn as at least 2 pairs until you have reads to tell you otherwise 3. Estimate your pot odds

Enjoy!


abnaxis
Joined: 10.05.2009

Cheers Zero for answering, much apreciated :)

I can't believe i let this one out. Yes the raise on flop. I wasn't able to do it. All i had was the option of folding or calling his all-in. It was the first time i saw that and i was just dumbstruck. Looked at the hand for quite a bit and then just called it. So after the session i went online and didn't much find any usefull information apart from a forum where some guy was not allowed to re-raise after an all-in while playing a live game at a casino. Apparently you can't raise an all-in if the all-in is less than half of what you raised for. This was the case here as well, so i stopped searching and decided to ask it here alongside a hand review (smart of me to forget about it, huh? ) So yeah, do you know anything about it or anyone else? Is that rule above correct?

This is the rule i found btw.:

In limit play, an all-in wager of less than half a bet does not reopen the betting for any player who has already acted and is in the pot for all previous bets. A player who has not yet acted (or had the betting reopened to him by another player’s action), facing an all-in wager of less than half a bet, may fold, call, or complete the wager. An all-in wager of a half a bet or more is treated as a full bet, and a player may fold, call, or make a full raise. (An example of a full raise on a $20 betting round is raising a $15 all-in bet to $35.) Multiple all-in wagers, each of an amount too small to individually qualify as a raise, still act as a raise and reopen the betting if the resulting wager size to a player qualifies as a raise.

Great advice on turn, thanks. I felt i was to loose on these sort of calls. HU that is. Even three way pots im usually fine, but HU i just always feel like there's something fishy going on and call to loosely. I'll apply the 2 pair rule to my game from now on. Ofc making sure i observe the pot odds and that i don't start folding to much now :)

Thanks again for the reply and have fun,

Abnaxis


Dawnfall26
Joined: 30.07.2008

Hi!

It doesnt make sense to call his flop raise and then bet when very bad card for you comes.
I actually only see an easy flop 3bet as you are not basically just playing vs passive BB and you want to extract max value out of him. Just 3bet and then bet bet is the best play.

And I think you are also very undervalueing your hand vs MP1.This guy will raise AI with almost his whole range which at least hit something(any pair,any draw, and usually even just A/Khigh or even worse) so you are clearly a favourite against him.Also monsters should discounted at least to some degree as he usually just caps preflop with these.


abnaxis
Joined: 10.05.2009

Hey hey, cheers for answering Dawnfall :)

Ye, i agree 3-betting flop would be the best and would do it if i could :) Ah well, strange rules come into play sometimes as well. Won't happen again anytime soon most likely.

As for the turn, ye i felt the same way thats why i just called him down. Still gotta keep an eye out for my odds though. (i usually overplay my hand when it comes to c/r turns)

Thanks again for the advice and have fun,

Abnaxis