0.25/0.50 Coaching Hand: J9o Iso-Gone Bad...."Deal With It" River

Can I bet/3-bet? ♦

Originally posted by YohanN7
Can I bet/3-bet? ♦

You go nuts good sir

I didn't see the show unfortunately. Here is my vote anyway:

No bet/3-bet?

I still bet - and I bet for value. Not because I think we are best here, but because we are probably best if we are called. Compare this to the case where we check, he bets, and we call. Our last wager has very little value. Even checking and folding might be better.

The rationale is this:

1. We are not giving up because there is 10 BB in the pot.
2. If we check, he will bet almost exclusively better hands than ours.
3. If we bet, he will (quite justifiably) suspect Boomer for being on a busted draw and call with all pp, and some ace high.
4. I see few better hands than ours checking behind if we check.
5. He will bet some with worse hands as a bluff, but not many enough to justify check-calling i m o.

Edit: It's sort of bizarre, but this can't be very far from a check-fold (I still bet!). If the river had bricked, we have a super-clear bet (as a bluff). Now we hit, and are close to checking and folding.

/Johan =

check call river. or check fold

ps. i cheated and had a little convo with boomer about this hand

also x/r for bluff is awesome with a hand like J9s !

Originally posted by YohanN7
I didn't see the show unfortunately. Here is my vote anyway:

No bet/3-bet?

I still bet - and I bet for value. Not because I think we are best here, but because we are probably best if we are called. Compare this to the case where we check, he bets, and we call. Our last wager has very little value. Even checking and folding might be better.

The rationale is this:

1. We are not giving up because there is 10 BB in the pot.
2. If we check, he will bet almost exclusively better hands than ours.
3. If we bet, he will (quite justifiably) suspect Boomer for being on a busted draw and call with all pp, and some ace high.
4. I see few better hands than ours checking behind if we check.
5. He will bet some with worse hands as a bluff, but not many enough to justify check-calling i m o.

Edit: It's sort of bizarre, but this can't be very far from a check-fold (I still bet!). If the river had bricked, we have a super-clear bet (as a bluff). Now we hit, and are close to checking and folding.

/Johan =

If you're betting this it isn't for value.

What draws have busted from our CO range? Calling this river with bare A-high or a PP seems loose at best and terrible at worst, I imagine he will have folded a lot of A-Highs on the turn.

Here's a hint as to how hard we've hit this board. Betting a Q for value is extremely debateable if we don't cap pre

Originally posted by Boomer2k10

Originally posted by YohanN7
I didn't see the show unfortunately. Here is my vote anyway:

No bet/3-bet?

I still bet - and I bet for value. Not because I think we are best here, but because we are probably best if we are called. Compare this to the case where we check, he bets, and we call. Our last wager has very little value. Even checking and folding might be better.

The rationale is this:

1. We are not giving up because there is 10 BB in the pot.
2. If we check, he will bet almost exclusively better hands than ours.
3. If we bet, he will (quite justifiably) suspect Boomer for being on a busted draw and call with all pp, and some ace high.
4. I see few better hands than ours checking behind if we check.
5. He will bet some with worse hands as a bluff, but not many enough to justify check-calling i m o.

Edit: It's sort of bizarre, but this can't be very far from a check-fold (I still bet!). If the river had bricked, we have a super-clear bet (as a bluff). Now we hit, and are close to checking and folding.

/Johan =

If you're betting this it isn't for value.

What draws have busted from our CO range? Calling this river with bare A-high or a PP seems loose at best and terrible at worst, I imagine he will have folded a lot of A-Highs on the turn.

Here's a hint as to how hard we've hit this board. Betting a Q for value is extremely debateable if we don't cap pre

All A-high FD have busted, but I get the point. Check-fold then? Check-call looks terrible.

/Johan =

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by Boomer2k10

Originally posted by YohanN7
I didn't see the show unfortunately. Here is my vote anyway:

No bet/3-bet?

I still bet - and I bet for value. Not because I think we are best here, but because we are probably best if we are called. Compare this to the case where we check, he bets, and we call. Our last wager has very little value. Even checking and folding might be better.

The rationale is this:

1. We are not giving up because there is 10 BB in the pot.
2. If we check, he will bet almost exclusively better hands than ours.
3. If we bet, he will (quite justifiably) suspect Boomer for being on a busted draw and call with all pp, and some ace high.
4. I see few better hands than ours checking behind if we check.
5. He will bet some with worse hands as a bluff, but not many enough to justify check-calling i m o.

Edit: It's sort of bizarre, but this can't be very far from a check-fold (I still bet!). If the river had bricked, we have a super-clear bet (as a bluff). Now we hit, and are close to checking and folding.

/Johan =

If you're betting this it isn't for value.

What draws have busted from our CO range? Calling this river with bare A-high or a PP seems loose at best and terrible at worst, I imagine he will have folded a lot of A-Highs on the turn.

Here's a hint as to how hard we've hit this board. Betting a Q for value is extremely debateable if we don't cap pre

All A-high FD have busted, but I get the point. Check-fold then? Check-call looks terrible.

/Johan =

And again, why would we x/r A-high flush draws on the flop? Doesn't really make a huge amount of sense in the grand scheme when we have much better hands in our range to bluff with. (Even if we did there's 1 combo of each A-high FD)

I am genuinely interested in people's opinions though because this spot is rough as hell

Originally posted by Boomer2k10

Originally posted by YohanN7

Originally posted by Boomer2k10

Originally posted by YohanN7
I didn't see the show unfortunately. Here is my vote anyway:

No bet/3-bet?

I still bet - and I bet for value. Not because I think we are best here, but because we are probably best if we are called. Compare this to the case where we check, he bets, and we call. Our last wager has very little value. Even checking and folding might be better.

The rationale is this:

1. We are not giving up because there is 10 BB in the pot.
2. If we check, he will bet almost exclusively better hands than ours.
3. If we bet, he will (quite justifiably) suspect Boomer for being on a busted draw and call with all pp, and some ace high.
4. I see few better hands than ours checking behind if we check.
5. He will bet some with worse hands as a bluff, but not many enough to justify check-calling i m o.

Edit: It's sort of bizarre, but this can't be very far from a check-fold (I still bet!). If the river had bricked, we have a super-clear bet (as a bluff). Now we hit, and are close to checking and folding.

/Johan =

If you're betting this it isn't for value.

What draws have busted from our CO range? Calling this river with bare A-high or a PP seems loose at best and terrible at worst, I imagine he will have folded a lot of A-Highs on the turn.

Here's a hint as to how hard we've hit this board. Betting a Q for value is extremely debateable if we don't cap pre

All A-high FD have busted, but I get the point. Check-fold then? Check-call looks terrible.

/Johan =

And again, why would we x/r A-high flush draws on the flop? Doesn't really make a huge amount of sense in the grand scheme when we have much better hands in our range to bluff with. (Even if we did there's 1 combo of each A-high FD)

I am genuinely interested in people's opinions though because this spot is rough as hell

Assuming the button is good, then you are right, he'd know we didn't raise A high flush draws.

Suppose we check with the intention of calling. If we assume our opponent is good, then (if I get it right) he has very few A high and small pp left. He must also be good enough to turn these holdings unto a bluff. That's a bit of a stretch. But perhaps he'd bluff with them, but not call. I wish I was a mindreader, or, better, had a holecard camera.

Here is an idea of an algorithm to solve this: Use two instances of Combonator and "play it out street by street". One instance has the buttons range, and the other has your range. (I'm sure you have done something similar.) Then see what remains on the river.

And now to something completely different:

/Johan = ♠_biggrin:

Hello all

I'll take this opportunity to give it a try !

First of all I'll fold J9o preflop v 1 limper in CO... maybe I'll raise in BU depending on his VPIP and WTSD, but as the hand goes... but since I assume you raise J9o here I'll take all my CO's range in .

I can have a capping range preflop here... but in this case I will assume we call all of it.

Flop play :

My x/r'ing range here would be :

Combonator Output combonator.com
Board: 6 Q K

Entire range: 367 

[b]  Grouped[/b]:  172 combos  46.9% 
[b]Ungrouped[/b]:  195 combos  53.1% 

  [b]Group 1[/b]:  104 combos  60.5% (28.3% total) 
  [b]Group 2[/b]:   68 combos  39.5% (18.5% total) 

[b]Group 1[/b]: Pair of queens or better

QQ+, 66, AQs+, AQo+, K6s+, K9o+, QJs, QJo

[b]Group 2[/b]: King-high or worse, gutshot or better, added JTs, removed AJs-ATs, AJo-ATo

J8s+, J9o+, T8s+, T9o, 97s+, 87s

Seem's high in bluffs... but if I'll be in the game right now it will be that...

The turn is basically a blank, so I think we 2nd barrel all our range.

River play now.

1.

bet for value :

Since BU didn't raise the turn, he's likely to have a medium'ish hand (exept for AT, JJ and QJ). He can have something like AJ too and given the action a PP like TT-88 (55???) I think J9o is maybe a little too thin to bet. But my value range here would be :

Combonator Output combonator.com
Board: 6 Q K 7 J

Entire range: 154 

[b]  Grouped[/b]:  101 combos  65.6% 
[b]Ungrouped[/b]:   53 combos  34.4% 


[b]Grouped[/b]: Pair of kings or better

QQ+, 66, AKs, AKo, K6s+, K9o+, QJs, QJo, T9s, T9o

2. Bluffs - Since we need to bet 1 to win 10.2, a 10% bluffing range would be ok I think :

Combonator Output combonator.com
Board: 6 Q K 7 J

Entire range: 154 

[b]  Grouped[/b]:  117 combos  76.0% 
[b]Ungrouped[/b]:   37 combos  24.0% 

  [b]Group 1[/b]:  101 combos  86.3% (65.6% total) 
  [b]Group 2[/b]:   16 combos  13.7% (10.4% total) 

[b]Group 1[/b]: Pair of kings or better

QQ+, 66, AKs, AKo, K6s+, K9o+, QJs, QJo, T9s, T9o

[b]Group 2[/b]: Bottom 10% of complete range

J8s (2), T8s, 98s, 97s (3), 87s (3)

3. CC range :

Combonator Output combonator.com
Board: 6 Q K 7 J

Entire range: 154 

[b]  Grouped[/b]:  153 combos  99.4% 
[b]Ungrouped[/b]:    1 combos   0.6% 

  [b]Group 1[/b]:  101 combos  66.0% (65.6% total) 
  [b]Group 2[/b]:   16 combos  10.5% (10.4% total) 
  [b]Group 3[/b]:   36 combos  23.5% (23.4% total) 

[b]Group 1[/b]: Pair of kings or better

QQ+, 66, AKs, AKo, K6s+, K9o+, QJs, QJo, T9s, T9o

[b]Group 2[/b]: Bottom 10% of complete range

J8s (2), T8s, 98s, 97s (3), 87s (3)

[b]Group 3[/b]: Manual selection

AQs, AQo, J9s+, J9o+

----

Whaaat.. I've grouped all my combos... so I'll stop here but if someone can develop, modify or anything on my ranges I'll be glad to listen :P.

How about a b/f range btw ?