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NL10 OP MW 3b pot

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FrozenElf
Joined: 06.07.2015

I moved this hand also because again people seem to write a comment without even reading what you are asking help with

I have JJ on a 7-6-7ss board mw in a 3bet pot, I have initiative, so my first question is looking at the hand and the board, how many streets of value do I want? is it 1-2 maximum? second question - if I bet here I don't really gather any information that anyone has a 7x hand, where as if I check and everyone checks back I can assume im ahead most of the time and then start betting for value on the turn and river collecting my 1-2 bets and avoid losing whats going to be a stack? (Also im getting to showdown cheaper in this MW pot with my OP)

I would love some advice in this particular spot and do you agree with me?

Poker Stars $0.05/$0.10 No Limit Hold'em $0.02 Ante - 6 players - View hand 2795108
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

MP: $10.00
CO: $10.42
BTN: $30.48
Hero (SB): $14.09
BB: $20.38
UTG: $27.31

Pre Flop: ($0.27) Hero is SB with J :heart: J :club:
2 folds, CO raises to $0.30, BTN calls $0.30, Hero raises to $1.20, 1 fold, CO calls $0.90, BTN calls $0.90

Flop: ($3.82) 7 :diamond: 6 :diamond: 7 :club: (3 players)
Hero bets $1.82, CO folds, BTN calls $1.82

Turn: ($7.46) 8 :spade: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $7.80, Hero calls $7.80

River: ($23.06) T :heart: (2 players)
Hero checks, BTN bets $3.40, Hero calls $3.25 all in

Final Pot: $29.56
BTN shows 7 :spade: A :spade: (three of a kind, Sevens)
Hero shows J :heart: J :club: (two pair, Jacks and Sevens)
BTN wins $28.23
(Rake: $1.33)


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4 replies

Hi,

For your first question I believe how many streets of value you want to go for is dependent on how your opponent's range looks, his general tendencies and the board run-out. For example, the button's range is constructed in such a way that if the turn came 2s and river 2h and the opponent looks fishy, I could even be triple barrelling my stack for value (small sizing). Or if our opponent likes to bluff I could double barrel then check/call. However, for instance if the 5d or Ad appeared on the turn, I would proceed much more cautiously. Generally in a 3-bet pot it's probably around a 2-street or 1-street hand, but you could get anywhere from 1 to 3 streets of value depending on your opponent and your circumstances.

Second question, I think a bet is much better than a check on the flop. There's a lot of hands we'd prefer to fold out which would see free equity if it got checked around + there's many hands we can get value from. I don't really believe the information we might obtain from checking outweighs the reasons for betting. It's probably true that their checking ranges are weak, but I think there's more merit in betting ourselves than trying to be too safe or clever.

The goal isn't to stack-off 140bb deep in a 3-bet pot w/ JJ, so you might wish to avoid calling big committing bets without a good reason in your mind.

Hope this helps


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FrozenElf
Joined: 06.07.2015

Hi drew, thanks for stopping by, you say our plan isn't to get it all in with 140bb deep, witch i agree with, if i am going to bet the flop shouldn't i reduce my sizing so im not pot committed like this on the turn? lets say like 1/3, i will gain value from a lot worse hands that way too, its quite frustrating i keep getting into trouble in spots like this.

If we check the flop, there are only 3 over cards and it doesn't mean, our opponents have them, we disguise our hand a little more to make it look like air, i know we are giving free cards to 2 players but if we bet here, there isn't much that can call, specially with that sizing i chose


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Hello =)

1) Trying to figure out sizings in big pots can often be frustrating if we don't dedicate some time to thinking about it both at and away from the table. The worst thing is firing a bet in a large pot & realizing that the stack sizes are really awkward on the next street. It's awkward when stacks don't fit neatly into a 1-street or 2-street plan.. you aren't sure whether you're committed or not, etc. So we want to avoid those situations by making things as simple & effective as possible.

When we're in a big pot we naturally want to think about the effective stacks & how to fit the stack sizes into a 2-street or 3-street plan. This is quite easy to do heads-up but a bit more complicated if there's more than one player in the pot & their stack size changes things. I don't have a lot of experience in multi-way squeezed pots, but in general it's good to know that in 3-bet pots it's perfectly OK to use smaller sizings than you would normally use in a single-raised pot.

For example, if we imagined that we knew CO would be folding 100% of the time to a c-bet on the flop & we would be heads-up against the BU, the eff. stacks are around 128bb on the flop. We could create a 2-street or a 3-street plan in this situation. If we wanted to play our stack for 2 streets it would involve betting about 30bb into 38bb which leaves us with a pot-sized shove for the turn. However, say we're holding a bluff which we're planning to check/fold on the turn if our flop bet gets called - we would still be betting 30bb here, just as we would be if we were planning to shove the turn. Ideally our checking range on the turn will also contain most (or all) of our non-vulnerable value hands especially vs aggressive players, & then our shoving range will also contain some bluffs with good equity as well as our vulnerable value shoves.

As you can see in this example we are not pot committed on the turn =) In your own hand you've suggested that you are pot committed on the turn when you really aren't at all.

If we want to create a 3-street plan, it's clear we'd need to bet a lot smaller on all streets. If we bet about 16bb into 38bb on the flop & 28bb into 70bb on the turn, we'd still have a good 84bb into 126bb shove on the river. Even in this example we are not committed to the pot after we double barrel, & we can resort to a similar strategy which we used for the 2-street plan, except now we are much less inclined to check some value hands. Some bluffs can be check/folded, some bluffs can be shoved, previous value bets could be check/called or check/folded, value hands can be shoved, etc. In general if the board is drawy & your opponent has some of those draws in his range, you want to be creating a 2-street plan if possible, whereas if the board is dry it is usually preferable to stick to a 3-street plan.

Some basic guidelines for thinking about sizing & I hope it helps you =)

2) I think we have what's almost close to a value bet on the flop, & knowing that there are large chunks of their range which we want to protect our hand against & extract value from, a bet on the flop is probably a good idea.

Board: 7♦6♦7♣
       Equity     Win     Tie
CO     24.07%  23.40%   0.67% { JJ-77, QdQh, QdQs, QhQs, AQs, 98s, 87s, KdQd, AdJd, KdJd, QdJd, AdTd, JdTd, Td9d, AQo+ }
BU     27.84%  27.66%   0.18% { TT-44, ATs, A7s-A6s, KJs, QJs, J9s+, 97s+, 87s, 76s, KdTd, QdTd, Ad9d, Kd9d, Qd9d, Td9d, Ad8d, Td8d, Ad5d, Ad4d, Ad3d, AhTd, AsTd, AsTh, AcTd, AcTh, AcTs }
SB     48.09%  47.60%   0.49% { JhJc }

However, it's probably likely that we're going to need to check at some point in the hand, so checking the flop might not be a terrible idea. I don't think I would personally do it though!

Hope this has helped! _biggrin:


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bonecore
Joined: 02.11.2009

To simplify things, in 3bet pots, with medium strength hands (like your overpair on that ugly board) we play for 2 streets of value (and like 55% of pot, no more.)
I would bet Flop + turn and x/f river (even with AA )
Villain can easily have 88,99,TT (hands that we beat on flop)
On river there are no hands we beat (zero hands)


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