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Structured vs Creative: A clash of Pokerstrategists!

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Coach
LemOn36
Joined: 07.02.2009


:diamond: WHEN: ONLY THIS MONDAY JUNE 17th 20:00 CEST
:diamond: WHERE: Our Twitch Channel
:diamond: WHAT: In this one-off special session we will show-off two Pokerstrategists.
Crusher A Is a creative type. Loves exploiting, new ideas, taking notes, coming up with new lines and sizes at the tables and outplaying opponents by getting into their heads.
Crusher B Is a structured type. Very methodical, hard working and strategic, loves working with solvers and charts and prefers a pre-meditated strategy at the tables with adjustments already studied during database analysis, rarely ones he makes out on the spot at the tables.

THEIR STYLES WILL GO HEAD TO HEAD AND YOU WILL LEARN ABOUT

  • How does their approach to poker differ naturally.
    - We will show you both the creative exploit based approach, and solver and chart based approach in action.
  • Which style is better and in what games.
  • What are the weaknesses, and strengths, of both.
  • What should YOU do, study charts and solvers all the time, or focus on figuring out each and every opponent at the tables and try to exploit them creatively?
  • What should you focus on away from the tables in your routine depending on what kind of player are you.

And of course as always we will have loads of fun live, in chat. So don't miss out and join us this Monday and share with us if you are more of a Structured or Creative Pokerstrategist!


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21 replies
bookai
Joined: 13.02.2012

It's a bad schedule for me because of work. Will it be available on Twitch after?


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Coach
LemOn36
Joined: 07.02.2009
AgapieGheorghe
Joined: 10.07.2011

This will be very interesting ! I will see you tonight :f_drink:


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bookai
Joined: 13.02.2012

Originally posted by LemOn36
yes it will and also in the video section!

I might be able to watch it live, afterall. Anyway it's good to know I can watch it later if I need to!


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Coach
LemOn36
Joined: 07.02.2009

Awesome,
45 minutes to go
And while one of the players chose to remain anonymous
There will be a SHOCKING reveal of who the other one's identity is hidden in the stream if you don't miss the clues!


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Coach
LemOn36
Joined: 07.02.2009
bookai
Joined: 13.02.2012

Was able to stop by, afterall! Great stream! I don't usually follow as I'm not a cash game player but will be looking out for more of these "general themed" streams! GG!! :f_drink::f_drink:


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Coach
LemOn36
Joined: 07.02.2009

Thank you very much, it was fun having you here!
Always looking for suggestions for the monthly specials by the way that players of more formats would enjoy!


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yadijavadi
Joined: 31.01.2018

Hey Lemon, been a while mate, hope you're well.

In that video you said you didnt really know how a creative player should develop his game. As you know, this is the style I use, so I thought I could shed some light on it for you guys:

These different approaches do cross-over each other all over the place, however, the training methods are completely different.

- The structured player needs to memorise more and more plays, more and more situations, they basically get better and better as they learn how to deal with more and more situations. Solvers, videos, that sort of thing will make you a better player.

- The creative player does not want to memorise plays. Memorising plays hinders their ability to act fluidly. Instead of memorising strategies, these guys train themselves to be better strategists. They make every decision in the moment, and so this style is all about understanding and building their proficiency at using the exploitative decision making process.

In that video you said that to train to exploit you need to write loads of notes, but this is not quite right. You dont need to know too much about the individual villain, and so notes are not essential to this style, tracking software can easily do all the work. You are looking at it all wrong, which is understandable as you are more of a structured player. You yourself seek to find plays that the villain misplays, which you can then exploit. You memorise all these plays, but the creative style is completely different.

We are not just trying to memorise the villains plays for next time we find ourselves in a similar situation, instead, we mainly use this information to learn about the villain. When the villain makes a mistake, we dont see a play that he misplayed and remember it for next time, instead we see a flaw in his understanding of how to think through a play. We can then exploit this weakness in all future decisions. The individual villains past plays are important to us, but the villains past plays is just one of the many things a creative player needs to consider for each decision.

Our history is not nearly as important to we creative players as you think it is Lemon. It's not like we wont know what to do if we are against unknown players. An exploitative player could simply presume the unknown villain is perfectly rational and he'd end up making a more GTO-like play. (If he also presumed the villain thought he himself was a perfectly rational player, and that both of them knew each other knew they were rational players, he would make an exact GTO play, provided he could calculate it all, which is obviously impossible for anyone but a God).

To develop yourself as an exploitive player there is very little you need to learn. You just need to learn how to think through a poker decision. A complete beginner can pick it up straight away and become a master very quickly. But, it is your ability to rationalise that makes you a better exploitative player. My memory sucks, and I'm lazy, but I am clever so the creative route suits me perfectly. I can see how those with a good memory would benefit from solver type training, however, it is massively beneficial for a player to learn the basic exploitative decision making theory before learning many plays, so that memorising all these plays wont hinder their ability to calculate plays so much.

You can find the exploitative decision making process in my book, of which you can all have a free PDF, just check my past posts and a copy should be pretty easy to find.

Once you learn the theory, you then need to actually follow the thought-process whilst at the tables, which is a constant lesson in brain training. Things like your ability to concentrate are massively important. So training methods like meditation can help improve your game. Meditation, (practicing concentration by centring your awareness on random things), is amazing for exploitative players. This would work perfectly well as all the training a creative player needs, provided they understand the thought-process.

Lemon, you ever want to do a calibration with me just let me know, we could do a video where we both analyse each others stats/hands, or something like that. You're a good bloke so I'd happily work with you.


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Coach
Kyyberi
Joined: 09.07.2010

+1 for video.


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Pokamon
Joined: 15.04.2006

Originally posted by yadijavadi
I shed some light on it

i feel so blessed. first Lemons video, than it got even better.


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Coach
LemOn36
Joined: 07.02.2009

Originally posted by yadijavadi
Hey Lemon, been a while mate, hope you're well.
In that video you said you didn't really know how a creative player should develop his game.

I'm doing fantastic! Actually, spoiler alert, Player B was based on me!

Can't wait to hear your input live in chat tomorrow where we put the approaches to the test!
https://forums.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?postid=3010674#post3010674


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yadijavadi
Joined: 31.01.2018

Does sound quite interesting, I'll try to chuck in some reads/strategies for you but my kid will still be awake so I wont be able to contribute much.


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yadijavadi
Joined: 31.01.2018

Lemon, there is something I wish to convey to you. Something I hope you will take time to consider. If you come to understand what I say now you will instantly become a far better player. This is very simple logic, a beginner can grasp it instantly, but for strange reasons it will not be easy for you to learn.

Before I can explain, I need you to understand a little of my Poker history... I started my career at a poker school in Bulgaria. I left my job in the uk and moved into this poker sweat-shop. Three years later, among my many achievements was taking 8bbs in over a million hands from the $200 games at 888. Thats when I stopped playing to spend five years, FIVE YEARS, considering how to make one individual poker decision. During these 5 years I learnt pretty much everything there is to know about making an exploitative decision. I learnt way more than any theorist before me. Nowadays I am able to almost instantly recognise a players proficiency to use the exploitative thought-process.

When watching you earlier, I was able to deduce your ability to use this thought-process. I now know the exact piece of theory that would advance you to becoming a far better player.

Subconsciously you are already good at exploiting, but, your subconscious mind is blocking your conscious mind from considering certain pieces of theory. You are suffering from something called cognitive dissonance which causes this mental block. You said earlier how it was a challenge to consider my logic. You believe that the reason for this is because my theories are different from what is commonly accepted, but, I learnt poker from a series of coaches not dissimilar to you. I didnt change the common poker theories in my solitude, I advanced them. And now I am as certain as a man can be, that your struggle is in fact a symptom of the cogD.

Up until now, in this post, I havent mentioned the logic that your mind rejects and so you should have little to no problem understanding everything so far. But that is about to change. Your mind is about to become clouded, you are about to become frustrated, or in some way emotionally impaired. Prepare yourself…

You are a Level Two player. You do not have the conscious ability to make a Level Three decision. When I asked you earlier to describe how you came to the conclusion that the villain held a Q, I already knew that your response was not going to contain any Level Three logic, and it did not. When I then highlighted the Level Three logic, by explaining that the perceived range is key to recognising the villains holding, you did try to add this to your deliberations as something of an after-thought, but all you really did was highlight exactly where your confusion lies. When trying to speak of your perceived range your subconscious mind deflected your conscious mind to another range, a range that is very similar to our perceived range but does not conflict with the Level Two thought-process. When I asked you to describe your perceived range, what you described was your actual range. The Level One range.

The difference between these ranges is subtle but amounts to this: To consider your perceived range you have to consider the game through the eyes of the villain. When I prompted you to speak of your perceived range, the villain in question had just called down A high to a large river bet. The range this particular player will put you on, your perceived range in the situation in question, was little more complicated than “air”. But instead of saying that, you said that your perceived range contained some value, some draws, etc. You did not consider this range from the villains perspective. You were facing a very weak player, and yet you analysed your range as though you were dealing with the perfect player. You described your range as it looks to you. You described your actual range.

Right this second your subconscious mind is trying to convince you that I am wrong. It will spew out one reason after another. You will think “that was just me rushing”, “that difference is so small, it barely even matters”. These are tricks of the mind. Please understand that there is nothing more important to a Level Two player than learning Level Three. It enhances the way you approach all decisions in Poker, and it can be learnt in mere seconds if you do exactly what I say -

All you have to do is go through some recorded Poker decisions, and whilst considering each decision, consider specifically how your percieved range will change once you make the play. If the villain is a calling station, this range will usually contain many weak hands. If the villain folds a lot, this range must contain very strong hands. There is a direct correlation between the range you are representing and the hands the villain plays. The hands the villain plays are directly based upon the range he assigns for you.

Your subconscious mind will probably be telling you that, “this is obvious”, but this is just another trick. This is very obvious stuff. At the age of 6 or so humans naturally develop the ability to make these same calculations subconsciously. I am not saying this logic is complicated, I am just saying that you are not consciously considering it properly. This range is very easy to follow, but how come you didn’t mention one single thing about it through-out your entire video? This is the all important range that enables us to assertain the strength of the villains hand, and yet you didn’t mention it at all when explaining how to exploit. You mentioned the villains hand loads, his range etc, but not once did you mention your own perceived range. I asked why you put him on the Q and you said it was because you bet big. This alone is not a reason for the villain to fold. You know this.

You know almost all the calculations for Level Three, but, you are confusing your actual range with your perceived range which ruins all the calculations.

I am quitting teaching my theories. I’ve decided to use my theories instead, to create a new trade-system to replace our current system, which I hope will eventually bring paradise to the world. I’ve given up on teaching because it is too difficult to get past experienced players' subconscious blockages. You have shown a remarkable resilience to the effects of the cognitive dissonance, you even repeatedly inviting me to join you for more talks. This is very rare for a Level Two player, and so I felt like I might aswell have a stab at teaching you Level Three.

You will know when you crack it. The feeling is unmistakable. Enlightenment. Euphoria. You will feel elated as your Level Two decision making process is enhanced by the Level Three logic which you already know is true. You will no longer feel frustrated nor will you feel any negative emotions when considering posts like this. You will feel elated like the man who escaped in Platos allegory of the cave. Your mind will be free, and you will instantly become a far better poker player. Probably even better a player than I am. I dont claim to be the best player. I dont have the brain, nor the inclination to become such. I am a deep thinker. A real deep thinker. My skillset has led me to become the most advanced strategic theorist ever to live, but I am leaving the poker world as the most hated and ridiculed player ever to step foot on the poker scene. I hope atleast this post was not written in vain.


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Coach
LemOn36
Joined: 07.02.2009

My skillset has led me to become the most advanced strategic theorist ever to live

You truly humble us with your presence sire, here's me hoping you shall continue to stir some mild controversy that feeds me with ideas that secure the glorious varied future of The Monthly Specials!


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yadijavadi
Joined: 31.01.2018

That was a very clever post Lemon. It keeps all the Yadi-haters happy as your praise is potentially sarcastic, and you also keep me and mine happy as your praise is potentially true. I was also impressed by the way you quoted a line from the end of my post. This lets me know that you read the whole post without you having to broach the main content. You clearly wish to remain neutral, but I cant tell from this reply whether or not you plan to do the exercise I proposed... Hmmm...

You do continue to impress, but you dont appear to realize that I hate being a controversial element, as all this really means is that most people think I'm wrong. So, tell you what, if you can solve a simple problem to help me show the readers of this thread that one commonly accepted piece of theory is wrong, and that my controversial theory is correct, then I will promise to join you next month -

The poker world believes that you cannot exploit a villain you know nothing about. But consider this:

For the first 5 hands at a completely new table we are dealt AA and use the GTO strategy. We take down all these pots before showdown, no hands are revealed. On the 6th hand, we are dealt mediocre cards, like QTo on the button. By the time we hit this 6th hand, we can be almost certain that it will be better for us if we do not make the GTO play, basically, we don't want to bluff as often as GTO dictates, even though we know absolutely nothing about any of the villains. Why?


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Coach
Kyyberi
Joined: 09.07.2010

They are not unknown players. You have history of 5 hands with them, and you 5 preflop wins have created table dynamics and metagame.

I hope everyone reads yadi's post above, as it actually contains a gem for poker players.

When you can see the situation through your opponent's eyes, you can really exploit his tendencies. To do so, you have to understand how your opponent thinks about poker.

I worked few years as a dealer in local pub poker and talked with recreational players a lot. They see poker a whole different way than us.


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yadijavadi
Joined: 31.01.2018

Nearly, but no cigar… We know absolutely nothing about any of these villains.

- If you need this point to be clearer, we can say that we have only played 1 of those hands against each of the villains at a 6 seater table. We do not know their tendencies, we don’t know the strategies they apply. We know nothing about them.

- To have meta with a villain you need to know something about them. You need to have seen the same situations against the same villains multiple times. But we've only seen 1 hand against each of these guys, we know nothing about them.

- “Table dynamics” does change, but not because the villain knows anything about us. It’s hard to describe your flaw here without giving away the answer to the problem. If there is table dynamics, this usually implies that we know something about the villains, how they generally play, but we don’t. To make this point clearer we could say that this table has been running for 50 years and we are a newcomer, we can also say that we have only been on the attack and have seen them do little more than fold.

Kyberri, you know that I have tried to teach you this exact same piece of theory recently, but I aborted as you are highly susceptible to the effects of CogD. You gave me loads of abuse. Your post here does seem polite, it even sounds like you praise me, but really, you havent even tried to answer the problem I set out, instead, you have tried to say that the question is flawed. It is also clear that you have made your post subtly insulting. “There is 1 thing in Yadi’s post that is important”. Just 1 eh. You would have said the whole thing was wrong, but instead you are trying to give the readers a little bite of the carrot, making them see that you agree with me a little, only so that you can explain that in general I am wrong. The real reason you want to convince everyone that I am wrong is so that your subconscious mind can reject the truth. If this conversation with you continues, and I continue to explain the flaws in your logic, you will eventually start attacking me as a person, as you have before. You’ll try to attack my winrate, my personality, my private life. And I can’t be arsed with this anymore. I’ve seen the cycle too many times from experienced players and we never get anywhere.

I’ll ask you again Kyberri, please stop following me around trying to discredit my every post. Lemon has never been in any way abusive to me, his strength of character doesn’t allow for it, meaning that his subconscious mind has less ways to cause trouble. Please allow Lemon to answer (or anyone who wants to try to give us the correct answer). If anyone here shows that they understand how this Level Three thought-process works then by extension you will find it far easier to understand too.


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TJtheTJ
Joined: 12.10.2011

I'm assuming the answer you're looking for is that after opening 5 times in a row, our perceived range is very wide and thus bluffing becomes less profitable.

Kyyberi kind of said the same thing though. We've opened and taken down the pot 5 times in a row so clearly we're creating some sort of image and thus some table dynamics. It pretty much comes down to the same thing as dynamics and image affect our perceived range.


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