Skipping through the limits

Originally posted by bartjuh

Originally posted by ErikStenqvist

Ok so there a few things when it comes to which tilt we should address fist. So which form of tilt shows up first and most often. If the are the lower softer forms of tilt they might seem like they are lees important. But if they are the first step on path towards desperation tilt it doesn't make much sense to wait until there is completely chaos mentally before we take action. Makes sense right.

Yes, makes sense.

Try to put them in order of severity and in what order they show up.

Severity: 1. desperation tilt (most severe) 2. injustice tilt 3. running bad tilt 4. entitlement tilt 5. hate to lose tilt
Order of show up 1. hate to lose tilt (shows up first) 2. entitlement tilt 3. running bad tilt 4. injustice tilt 5. desperation tilt

So severity and order of show-up are reverse ♦

Also look at how you can notice in the present moment that you are tilting. Try writing three separate list of signs of tilt:

• Internal signs: emotional, anger, sweaty palms, heart pounding etc, face getting hot for example
  feeling annoyed, heart rate rising, feeling emotional/sad, feeling angry, heart pounding, rage
• External signs: swearing, punching the desk, leg starting to bounce
  kick on ground, swearing, kicking the desk, screaming, stand up and hit on wall / door
• Pokerstrategy signs: Plays that show up when you play your B/C-Game, calling 3bets light etc.
  B-game: small mistakes like not checking stats before making a play, autopiloting, tightening up a bit
  C-game: making wrong plays/ timing is off, actually being too aggressive in steal/re-steal spots, no plan for my hand, missing the action too much, not able to think clear and make the right plays
  D-game: spew stacks off like a monkey throwing bananas

Then you try to put anything that comes up in the same kind of order as the different types of tilt. From 1-10 in order of what shows up first and level of severity.

show up: 1. feeling annoyed 2. feeling emotional/sad 3. B-game shows up 4. heart rate rising 5. kick on ground 6. feeling angry 7. swearing 8. C-game shows up 9. kicking the desk 10. screaming 11. heart pounding 12. rage 13. D-game shows up 14. stand up and hit wall/door

Level of severity is basically the above list reversed.

Thanks. This gives a pretty good insight in my tilt problems.
So I should start working on the hate to lose tilt first I guess?

Awesome job on the tilt profile!

If you don't mind I will link to your thread so others can get inspiration from you!

Try to prepare before a session by looking for the signs of tilt and try to calm you self down by down some deep breathing and try talking out loud. Now you have all the information about tilt on paper now try to catch i as early as you can. I recommend starting to practice mindfulness so you have more awareness to see the signs. You can use my video here Mindfulness

So you can see that since the order of the tilt is reversed you can see how it builds up. That desperation tilt is accumulated tilt from all the other forms of tilt. So starting to deal with the first thing that comes up and not let the "tilt ball" start rolling and getting out of hand is key here

Cheers!

Originally posted by Schnitzelfisch
Hey there,

how did you like the videos? Do you have any questions regarding them?

-Primož

Hi Primož,

I really liked the videos. ♠_thumbsup:
I like to learn about poker and have 'studied' a lot of videos, books and articles in the past. But 'studied' is not the right word I think, because I learned in a very passive way. I kind of knew this and tried to study more actively a couple of times, but never was able to change it structurally.
So now I know a little about a lot so to speak.

I think your video series give me the tools to do make the change to become an active learner. It will be a major challenge for me, as my passive study habits are part of me for a very long time now. But I think it will improve my life so much that I really need to go for it!

My plan to become an active learner:

Basic plan: develop good study habits and build upon those.
So for example
Month 1: - develop 2 new habits
Month 2: - keep the habits from the previous month, - add two new ones
Month 3: - keep the 4 habits, - add a new one

Continue to do this until I'm satisfied with the current learning process.

What I'm working on this month is the habit of watching a video everyday and taking notes.
While I think this will be an improvement to what I did before, I'll probably tweak this one in the near future. This is because it goes against the principal "don't learn if you haven't applied everything that you've learned to your game"
I simply get too much information to apply efficiently this way!
So I need to create a process to be able to apply all the information from the videos that I watch to my game on and off table.

Draft of a candidate process to apply knowledge obtained from videos to my game. This is modeled for the recursive learning process.

Day 1: - watch a video and make notes, - if something is unclear ask the author and/or other players
(gathering info)

Day 2: - work out notes in the correct binder: Poker theory and concepts, Leak finder, Mental game
(put in own words)

Day 3: - review the worked out notes, - is everything clear?, - are there possible mistakes?, - if there are issues do research into them
(debugging, research)

Day 4: - apply knowledge to examples, - put it on master focus list, - integrate it in thought process, - drill until I master it.
(examples, drills)

Primož, what do you think of this candidate process? Would you change anything?

Thanks!

Hey again,

I think it looks amazing! This way I think that you will be able to learn really efficiently and get a really good understanding of the game.

I suggest that you just try it out over the next couple of months and see how it goes. If you should have any problems along the way, I will be happy to help you out of course ;).

-Primož

Originally posted by ErikStenqvist

Awesome job on the tilt profile!

If you don't mind I will link to your thread so others can get inspiration from you!

Try to prepare before a session by looking for the signs of tilt and try to calm you self down by down some deep breathing and try talking out loud. Now you have all the information about tilt on paper now try to catch i as early as you can. I recommend starting to practice mindfulness so you have more awareness to see the signs. You can use my video here Mindfulness

So you can see that since the order of the tilt is reversed you can see how it builds up. That desperation tilt is accumulated tilt from all the other forms of tilt. So starting to deal with the first thing that comes up and not let the "tilt ball" start rolling and getting out of hand is key here

Cheers!

Of course you can link this thread to others!

I tried your mindfulness exercise a couple of times now and it is a really good one. It enables me to let go of emotions a bit and clear my head.

In session I will watch for signs of tilt and if I notice it to build up I will use deep breathing. Also I will inject logic by talking out loud some memes from a paper next to my computer:

After a bad beat:

Bad beats are part of poker and they will keep happening. It is a simple mathematical fact. Accept this.

Bad beats are not evenly distributed. Maybe this session I will receive more than average. I have no control over it so focus on playing well. Just remember that in some other sessions you receive less than average.

Bad beats happen to everyone. So don't let them get to you and keep playing well. This way I will gain an edge over players that let them influence their play in a bad way.

After a cooler:
This hand was not a mistake. You made the right play. Let it go. In the long run you will cooler others just as much as they cooler you.

Some sessions you will get coolered more than you cooler them. Maybe this is such a session. Just remember that in other sessions it will be reversed.

After losing a big hand:
Losing hands is part of poker. It is not like chess where the best almost never lose. Review this hand later and don't worry about it now.

After making a mistake:
Even the best players make mistakes every session they play. Don't worry about it. Let it go for now. Review the hand later and learn from it.

When I think I am down for the session:
If I lose this session it does not mean that I played bad. Maybe it is just variance and that's beyond my control. Now focus on what you do control: playing well.

To find resolution for my tilt problems I need to do a lot of work off table also. I'm focusing on the hate-losing tilt first. I'm creating a mental hand history for this issue that I will post later. This way I will find corrections to my flawed thinking that I need to learn or 'drill' to the unconscious competence level. If done correctly I hope this will eliminate anger and other negative emotions coming up after a bad beat, cooler or losing a big hand. This will free up mental space that I can use to play better, incorporate new concepts into my game and move-up!

Originally posted by bartjuh
To find resolution for my tilt problems I need to do a lot of work off table also. I'm focusing on the hate-losing tilt first. I'm creating a mental hand history for this issue that I will post later.

Great idea!

I have written tons of Mental HH's in my day, it really is a skill in and of itself. If you post it here I will help you dig as deep as possible to root Hate losing tilt out

Mental Hand History ; Hate-Losing Tilt

1. Describe the problem

I hate losing in poker. I really really hate it! I hate losing hands, sessions and money. The anger and sadness I feel when losing is much worse than the joy I feel when winning.

I'm a competitive person and always hated to lose as long as I can remember.
However poker has taken it to a whole other level. I never could have imagined how much hate I feel because of losing in a simple card-game.

Losing triggers tilt problems like swearing, kicking, losing focus and slipping from A- to B-game or from B- to C-game. After a losing session or day I am often in a bad mood. It decreases my overall feeling of happiness significantly.

2. Why does it make logical sense that you would react, think, or feel that way?

It is not fun to lose. Certainly not when there is money on the line. It decreases my net worth and delays goals like buying a house and a boat.

Losing happens very frequently in poker. It is like being a boxer beaten down, getting up but immediately beaten down again and again and again.
Does this sound like a fun job?

I have put a lot of time and effort into the game. This makes losing worse.
If I would invest the same time and effort in most other games of skill I would not lose to beginners everyday. I would crush their soul. I wish this was true for poker also.

There is a lot on the line for me. I have chosen this path and invested a significant part of my life in it. Did I make the right choice? There is too much at stake. So it is logical that it influences me so much if I lose.

3. Why is that logic flawed?

It is not correct to connect money lost during a poker session to long term goals.

Comparing losing in poker to a boxer beaten down is exaggerated.

Poker is just not like most skill games. And luckily so because bad players would stop pretty soon.

There is a lot on the line but it is contra-productive to be so influenced by losing.

REST WILL FOLLOW LATER!

Originally posted by bartjuh
Mental Hand History ; Hate-Losing Tilt

1. Describe the problem

I hate losing in poker. I really really hate it! I hate losing hands, sessions and money. The anger and sadness I feel when losing is much worse than the joy I feel when winning.

I'm a competitive person and always hated to lose as long as I can remember.
However poker has taken it to a whole other level. I never could have imagined how much hate I feel because of losing in a simple card-game.

Losing triggers tilt problems like swearing, kicking, losing focus and slipping from A- to B-game or from B- to C-game. After a losing session or day I am often in a bad mood. It decreases my overall feeling of happiness significantly.

2. Why does it make logical sense that you would react, think, or feel that way?

It is not fun to lose. Certainly not when there is money on the line. It decreases my net worth and delays goals like buying a house and a boat.

Losing happens very frequently in poker. It is like being a boxer beaten down, getting up but immediately beaten down again and again and again.
Does this sound like a fun job?

I have put a lot of time and effort into the game. This makes losing worse.
If I would invest the same time and effort in most other games of skill I would not lose to beginners everyday. I would crush their soul. I wish this was true for poker also.

There is a lot on the line for me. I have chosen this path and invested a significant part of my life in it. Did I make the right choice? There is too much at stake. So it is logical that it influences me so much if I lose.

3. Why is that logic flawed?

It is not correct to connect money lost during a poker session to long term goals.

Comparing losing in poker to a boxer beaten down is exaggerated.

Poker is just not like most skill games. And luckily so because bad players would stop pretty soon.

There is a lot on the line but it is contra-productive to be so influenced by losing.

REST WILL FOLLOW LATER!

Very nice! Looking forward to the rest !

Originally posted by bartjuh
Mental Hand History ; Hate-Losing Tilt

1. Describe the problem

I hate losing in poker. I really really hate it! I hate losing hands, sessions and money. The anger and sadness I feel when losing is much worse than the joy I feel when winning.

I'm a competitive person and always hated to lose as long as I can remember.
However poker has taken it to a whole other level. I never could have imagined how much hate I feel because of losing in a simple card-game.

Losing triggers tilt problems like swearing, kicking, losing focus and slipping from A- to B-game or from B- to C-game. After a losing session or day I am often in a bad mood. It decreases my overall feeling of happiness significantly.

2. Why does it make logical sense that you would react, think, or feel that way?

It is not fun to lose. Certainly not when there is money on the line. It decreases my net worth and delays goals like buying a house and a boat.

Losing happens very frequently in poker. It is like being a boxer beaten down, getting up but immediately beaten down again and again and again.
Does this sound like a fun job?

I have put a lot of time and effort into the game. This makes losing worse.
If I would invest the same time and effort in most other games of skill I would not lose to beginners everyday. I would crush their soul. I wish this was true for poker also.

There is a lot on the line for me. I have chosen this path and invested a significant part of my life in it. Did I make the right choice? There is too much at stake. So it is logical that it influences me so much if I lose.

3. Why is that logic flawed?

It is not correct to connect money lost during a poker session to long term goals.

Comparing losing in poker to a boxer beaten down is exaggerated.

Poker is just not like most skill games. And luckily so because bad players would stop pretty soon.

There is a lot on the line but it is contra-productive to be so influenced by losing.

REST WILL FOLLOW LATER!

CONTINUED...

4. What is the correct way to handle the situation?

I need to look at my bankroll as working capital. I must not be afraid to lose part of it. If I practice healthy bankroll management, then I will not lose it all. Building a bankroll is never a straight line up, therefore I don't need to be mad if it goes down a bit and focus on the big picture.
I don't need to 'protect' money in my bankroll by cashing out frequently.
If I keep winnings in my bankroll, then it will grow and I'll be able to utilize it to move up and earn more money in the long run, thereby reaching my long term goals faster.

In poker, losing is part of the game. The best in the world lose thousands of hands, a lot of sessions and many days. Depending on what they play they can have losing months and years even. The best are the best because they are good at losing. Do they like it? Of course not. But they handle it well by keep playing their A-game, knowing that it will turn around as they have the long term edge. They work hard at their game to maintain their edge and this gives them the confidence to overcome any downswing and not being influenced by losing so much.
I have no control over variance so I need to focus on what I do control:
Playing well and working hard at my game.

Poker is different to a lot of skill games because it has a large element of chance in it. This gives beginners and amateurs a chance to win against better players. This is the only reason that there is so much money to be made in poker. In chess maybe the top 100 of the world can live of their winnings. In poker maybe the top 10,000 can live of it. In chess amateurs will not play pros for significant money, because they know they will lose.
In poker they have a real chance, can overestimate their ability's and might want to gamble it up. If they don't stand a chance against pros they will simply not put up any significant amount of money and pros would need to live of sponsor money and added prize pools like in chess.
So actually we must feel blessed that there is so much variance in poker!

I did invest a lot of myself in poker. This gives me the opportunity to make some money. Maybe enough to reach my goals, maybe not. It is not the end of the world if I do not reach my goals through poker. I have an education and can always decide to get a normal job or start a business.
For now I need to decide to make the most of my career. If I give it my best effort and fail to reach my goals, so be it, I have a back-up. If I do reach my goals, all the better!

5. Why is that correction correct?

By not being influenced by fluctuations in my bankroll, I will be able to focus on playing well and working hard. Seeing it as a tool that can be utilized to reach long term goals is the right approach.

By accepting that losing is part of poker and that I have no control over variance, I will be able to focus on the things that really matter and separates great players from the rest: play well and work hard on your game.

By recognizing where the money comes from in poker and why it is necessary to lose some of the time to bad players I can understand why variance is actually a good thing.

Having invested a lot in poker I now have an opportunity to give it my best shot to reach my goals. If I fail then I can say I at least tried and still have plan B to fall back on. This is a far better attitude than to worry about it too much, because that only holds me back.

you are putting in some serious work bartjuh it is very inspiring - I have no doubt that you will make huge steps forward with this kind of work ethic

gl

Originally posted by bartjuh
CONTINUED...

Boom! That is one solid Mental HH!

Before looking at the HH itself and we might not need to talk me through how it felt and what the experience was like writing it.

Keep up the awesome work!

Originally posted by yegon
you are putting in some serious work bartjuh it is very inspiring - I have no doubt that you will make huge steps forward with this kind of work ethic

gl

Thanks for the kind words!

Now I need to keep it up and that is not easy. Seeing already a little improvement in my tilt problems is motivating though.

gl2u2

Originally posted by ErikStenqvist

Boom! That is one solid Mental HH!

Before looking at the HH itself and we might not need to talk me through how it felt and what the experience was like writing it.

Keep up the awesome work!

Thanks Erik,

I found it a good experience to write the mental HH. Obviously I already thought about this issue and did read about variance and all that, but to put all my thoughts on paper makes the picture much more clear. I think by doing this HH I identified why I struggle so much with losing in poker. And I think I can make a plan now on how to combat this.

I think I need to re-program my brain so to speak.
Now I'm focusing on results way too much. I need to unlearn this. I started this process by not looking at results in session and succeeded this whole month so far. Before I looked maybe 10-20 times at results per session, taking away focus from playing. So that is a start.

Do you agree this is a good step? Do you have any suggestions to help the process further?

Once I have unlearned my results orientedness I will have more free mental space to focus on the good things; playing well and studying well.
I already noticed having more mental space available, because I found myself reviewing hands in session. Need to stop doing this before it I develop another bad habit ♦ So my plan is to create a focus list Schnitzelfisch style.
With the help of your mindfulness exercise I am confident that I will be able to play my A-game and focus on the right things much more often. So thanks for that

Next I found that I have not accepted losing as being an unavoidable part of poker. Basically I am constantly fighting it instead of going with the flow. Instead of riding the waves of variance like a surfer, I am fighting an uphill battle that I'll never be able to win...
I think I wrote some pretty good things on this subject in the HH. Like how world class players handle this and why it is necessary to lose to bad players some of the time.
Now I need to learn this 'wisdom' to the unconscious competence. I think injecting logic regularly on and off table is the way to go here. What do you think?

Also I think that there are some underlying fear/confidence issues related to losing. Those show through my overall mindset and attitude. I need to explore this more (weeee more work :P), but I will focus on the other things first.

Week 2 recap

ok lets look how I did on the goals for the week:
(commends in bold)

Originally posted by bartjuh

Goals for the second week:

Launch an attack on my hate-to-lose tilt.
I launched a full frontal attack. Feels good!

Buy 3 binders; one for poker theory and concepts, one for leak finding and one for the mental game. This way I can work out and categorize the writings in my notebook and work on my game in a structured manner.
I have done this

Attend the next seminar and try to be a bit more active.
I was behind my computer in time. Coach couldn't make it though, because of a little breeze ♦

Commend in other soldiers threads. Maybe a bit more than last week.
ups. Don't think I have done this. I did make some commends in strategy threads though. That's ok.