Fold top pair here?

If villain is tight it's not a shame to fold right away. As played villain is Cbetting huge against 2 villains and I expect villain will only continue with better Ax hands and you haven't a draw as back-up. read less i would fold and rturn is a fold for sure.

Cheers,
SDK1987

Originally posted by SDK1987
If villain is tight it's not a shame to fold right away. As played villain is Cbetting huge against 2 villains and I expect villain will only continue with better Ax hands and you haven't a draw as back-up. read less i would fold and rturn is a fold for sure.
Cheers,
SDK1987

I didnt want to fold pre because dont we have implied odds to call? I dont no much about the player maybe hes so tight he folds top pair good kicker when we hit a flush or something.. then we wouldnt have much implied odds but if hes a tight player who goes with his decently strong hands when he has one then maybe we do when we get a big hand?if we hit a flush or something we would be happy, if they have 99-KK and we flop a pair of aces we could be good? Why would this guy bet nearly pot for value ? And same thing in turn? I guess he is somewhat amateur player ? Since if he does have an ace it makes it less likely we have one, and hes folding out our worse hands that he would like value from very often with his huge bet sizings no?

Originally posted by Casey55
I didnt want to fold pre because dont we have implied odds to call? I dont no much about the player maybe hes so tight he folds top pair good kicker when we hit a flush or something..

Implied odds are double edged sword with your hand because yea - you can hit flush over flush but he will hit way often pair of aces with better kicker.

Another mistake on flop. Its turbo fold. Just think about it - he is betting pot size against 2 opponents and you cant call turn unless you hit miracle 9. Even hands as strong as 7♣:6♣: or A♥:J♥: are fold there.

Originally posted by EmiyaKiritsugu

Originally posted by Casey55
I didnt want to fold pre because dont we have implied odds to call? I dont no much about the player maybe hes so tight he folds top pair good kicker when we hit a flush or something..

Implied odds are double edged sword with your hand because yea - you can hit flush over flush but he will hit way often pair of aces with better kicker.

Another mistake on flop. Its turbo fold. Just think about it - he is betting pot size against 2 opponents and you cant call turn unless you hit miracle 9. Even hands as strong as 7♣:6♣: or A♥:J♥: are fold there.

I see what your saying, I think part of the reason I called is because people C-bet so often that If I call villain may not bet turn , If I fold top pair meh kicker to 1 flop bet feels like people can just run me over

His turn bet definitely looks like value bet with also trying to create a high fold equity to make any flush draws fold

Originally posted by Casey55
If I fold top pair meh kicker to 1 flop bet feels like people can just run me over

You should never assume that someone is exploiting you without any proof. Have you seen him abusing initiative with high frequency big cbet?

Originally posted by EmiyaKiritsugu

Originally posted by Casey55
If I fold top pair meh kicker to 1 flop bet feels like people can just run me over

You should never assume that someone is exploiting you without any proof. Have you seen him abusing initiative with high frequency big cbet?

I'm not assuming I'm being exploited, If I fold top pair decent kicker to a relatively unknown opponent I feel like I may be exploiting myself and over-folding. I think the flop call was probrably necessary for that reason and because it gave me more relevant information on the turn which made the fold more clear for me.

Basically if you fold top pair decent kicker versus an unknown on the flop what hands are you defending with? a very narrow range of TPTK, some sets, 2-pairs etc. Making a blind bet profitable versus us

Originally posted by Casey55
I'm not assuming I'm being exploited, If I fold top pair decent kicker to a relatively unknown opponent I feel like I may be exploiting myself and over-folding. I think the flop call was probrably necessary for that reason and because it gave me more relevant information on the turn which made the fold more clear for me.

Basically if you fold top pair decent kicker versus an unknown on the flop what hands are you defending with? a very narrow range of TPTK, some sets, 2-pairs etc. Making a blind bet profitable versus us

Rather than just look at your hand, you can also consider what range your action represents.
Then ask yourself, "Where do we go from here?"'
What is opponents range ?

in this case, opponents range includes several hands that seriously dominate yours.
If the flop contained some way for your hand to improve -- perhaps a flush or straight draw -- even backdoor ones -- continuing makes good sense.
On this flop that misses our hand except for the top-pair-decent-kicker perhaps CBet smaller, or even check/call

On the turn, we're looking for our equity to increase.
It doesn't so you quite correctly fold.

In many ways, you played this hand well IMHO

Cheers,
VS

Originally posted by VorpalF2F

Originally posted by Casey55
I'm not assuming I'm being exploited, If I fold top pair decent kicker to a relatively unknown opponent I feel like I may be exploiting myself and over-folding. I think the flop call was probrably necessary for that reason and because it gave me more relevant information on the turn which made the fold more clear for me.

Basically if you fold top pair decent kicker versus an unknown on the flop what hands are you defending with? a very narrow range of TPTK, some sets, 2-pairs etc. Making a blind bet profitable versus us

Rather than just look at your hand, you can also consider what range your action represents.
Then ask yourself, "Where do we go from here?"'
What is opponents range ?

in this case, opponents range includes several hands that seriously dominate yours.
If the flop contained some way for your hand to improve -- perhaps a flush or straight draw -- even backdoor ones -- continuing makes good sense.
On this flop that misses our hand except for the top-pair-decent-kicker perhaps CBet smaller, or even check/call

On the turn, we're looking for our equity to increase.
It doesn't so you quite correctly fold.

In many ways, you played this hand well IMHO

Cheers,
VS

I have put him on a range in the original post. we have to look at our hand when we are thinking about MDF against unknown opponent's and figure out where it fits in the big picture of things. I just don't know the player, sometimes people C-bet every time because they heard thats how you play poker. If he is c-betting KK,QQ,JJ, and betting hands like KQcc, QJcc etc. feels like it would be a disaster to fold flop. At 2nl Many players C-bet blindly without thinking of how many players are in the pot, I've seen some very wierd stuff lol.

You forgot that he used very large sizing. PSB(pot size bet) is value-heavy both for regulars and recreationals - its proven fact after analysis of milions hands. I dont mind calling to small sizing, but not that large bet. Especially as people are more honest in multiways.

Basically if you fold top pair decent kicker versus an unknown on the flop what hands are you defending with?

You should defend with top of your range and hands that have bigger chance to improve to very strong hand. Examples:
Q♠:J♠: - you have 4 outs to hit very strong hand - straight and you will be ahead of all AK/AQ/AJ/AT/sets. In comparison with A9s you have 3 outs for good 2 pairs, and even then you are still losing to sets and AT.
5♦:4♦: - it looks similar to A9 right? You have just one pair. Difference is that when you hit 5 or 4 on turn then you are not blocking AK/AQ/AJ in villain range. So there are more hands that will pay you off.

I can tell you that solver in heads up starts folding A9 already on flop(solver ranges tweaked to playerpool tendencies). It still likes to call ~50% but its only to sustain frequencies as In long run against balanced opponent this call is slightly losing. However here you are playing 3way against unbalanced human opponent and this call is very likely losing a lot.

Making a blind bet profitable versus us

Keep in mind that CO needs to force both you and SB to fold. Both of your ranges combined have enough strong hands and good draws to make cbet unprofitable based only on fold frequencies.

we have to look at our hand when we are thinking about MDF against unknown opponent's and figure out where it fits in the big picture of things.

MDF doesnt matter much on flop and turn because you need to consider that sometimes it will be very hard to realize your equity on next streets. Now no one is applying MDF outside situations when you are facing all in bet.

At 2nl Many players C-bet blindly without thinking of how many players are in the pot, I've seen some very wierd stuff lol.

It doesnt matter because your call is slightly winning even if you are right and people bet like that KK or QQ.

Originally posted by EmiyaKiritsugu
You forgot that he used very large sizing. PSB(pot size bet) is value-heavy both for regulars and recreationals - its proven fact after analysis of milions hands. I dont mind calling to small sizing, but not that large bet. Especially as people are more honest in multiways.

Basically if you fold top pair decent kicker versus an unknown on the flop what hands are you defending with?

You should defend with top of your range and hands that have bigger chance to improve to very strong hand. Examples:
Q♠:J♠: - you have 4 outs to hit very strong hand - straight and you will be ahead of all AK/AQ/AJ/AT/sets. In comparison with A9s you have 3 outs for good 2 pairs, and even then you are still losing to sets and AT.
5♦:4♦: - it looks similar to A9 right? You have just one pair. Difference is that when you hit 5 or 4 on turn then you are not blocking AK/AQ/AJ in villain range. So there are more hands that will pay you off.

I can tell you that solver in heads up starts folding A9 already on flop(solver ranges tweaked to playerpool tendencies). It still likes to call ~50% but its only to sustain frequencies as In long run against balanced opponent this call is slightly losing. However here you are playing 3way against unbalanced human opponent and this call is very likely losing a lot.

Making a blind bet profitable versus us

Keep in mind that CO needs to force both you and SB to fold. Both of your ranges combined have enough strong hands and good draws to make cbet unprofitable based only on fold frequencies.

we have to look at our hand when we are thinking about MDF against unknown opponent's and figure out where it fits in the big picture of things.

MDF doesnt matter much on flop and turn because you need to consider that sometimes it will be very hard to realize your equity on latter streets. Now no one is applying MDF outside situation when you are facing all in bet.

At 2nl Many players C-bet blindly without thinking of how many players are in the pot, I've seen some very wierd stuff lol.

It doesnt matter because your call is slightly winning even if you are right and people bet like that KK or QQ.

I'll agree to disagree with you. t. I have seen players at 2nl barrel multi-way and show down bluffs , it is very player dependant and wether they even have the knowledge of " I'm multi-way so I should be playing more straightforwardly", from my observations that knowledge doesn't seem commonplace at these stakes.

I don't fully understand the debate on having outs when against an unknown we could be ahead of them meaning we dont need to rely on outs. I played against some players yesterday I ended up crushing , they were maniacs and were betting pot and over-betting and I just called down in good spots.

It's easier to realize your equity when your IP which I was. you can defend wider than MDF for that reason, not that you may want to against a pot sized bet. Against a guy I dont know much about Im just not folding a pair of aces decent kicker to 1 flop bet.

If you are comfortable about your assumptions on playerpool tendencies then its ok. My point is that you shouldnt make decisions based on that you will be exploitable - for example folding flop too much - its not case, especially on nl2.

I don't fully understand the debate on having outs when against an unknown we could be ahead of them meaning we dont need to rely on outs.

Its not about odds but implied odds and reverse implied odds. Often its more important than pure odds.

It's easier to realize your equity when your IP which I was. you can defend wider than MDF for that reason, not that you may want to against a pot sized bet.

I will repeat one thing - using MDF makes sense only when you are facing all in bet or consider fold or call on river.

Imagine that villains opens on MP, you calls on BU but this time we have board A♣:K♦:3♠: He bets pot , you should defend 50%+,but should you? Opponent has massive advantage in very strong hands - He has KK,AA,AK that you never have. Also 33,A3 and AQ are more often in his range. It means that he can put a lot of pressure on you on later streets and actually its ok to to fold 'too much' on flop already.

MDF is viable on every street. OOP you can defend less than MDF and IP you can defend more because you will realize your equity better. MDF is used to prevent your opponent from blindly profiting with his bluffs. Its useful on every street however the hands in the MDF must meet the required equity to make the call. This is usually the strategy we use when playing against unknown players until we can get hands and data about how they play and then play more exploitatively.

MDF is split between all players remaining in the pot so MDF is 25% here but you could slightly over defend IP. And yes he can have a ton of value hands but hard to give an unknown guy zero bluffs imo.

I thought the guy was tight but I was not 100% confident, no hud and was basing it off of if I noticed any action in my perifierals while multi-tabling, was kind of a guess to be honest. If I knew forsure he was tight then maybe your right and fold flop is best.

Well, you should buy solver as soon as you can afford it and see for yourself how obsolete is MDF.

Originally posted by EmiyaKiritsugu
Well, you should buy solver as soon as you can afford it and see for yourself how obsolete is MDF.

I have gto+ and Im a premium member at pokercoaching.com. The stuff I’m talking sbout is from some of Jon Littles most recent content. They do a ton of work with solvers and very in depth studying with solvers etc. Alot of the content over there is based on how to play a fundamentally sound strategy and implementable GTO strategy. MDF is relevant.

Villain might have bluffs but we have no idea of his tendencies. If he keeps barreling good amount of time on turn after potting flop then we will be forced out of the pot.

Problem with this hand is that we are not really thrilled of any turn. Hitting A does not change hand relative strength but does make Ax less likely. 9 is nice at least if it's not 9♣:

So to make this flop call we need to assume villain is shutting down a lot on turn or he is just complete maniac and our plan is to call him down.

But I find it curious if you have invested into gto+ and premium membership but have not got tracking software which is like bread and butter of poker tools.

Originally posted by ghaleon
Villain might have bluffs but we have no idea of his tendencies. If he keeps barreling good amount of time on turn after potting flop then we will be forced out of the pot.

Problem with this hand is that we are not really thrilled of any turn. Hitting A does not change hand relative strength but does make Ax less likely. 9 is nice at least if it's not 9♣:

So to make this flop call we need to assume villain is shutting down a lot on turn or he is just complete maniac and our plan is to call him down.

But I find it curious if you have invested into gto+ and premium membership but have not got tracking software which is like bread and butter of poker tools.

Im using a trial of pokertracker thanks to some of your guy’s recomendations. I dont really like all the stats and what not I was thinking sbout switching to a site that has no huds , so people actually have to pay attention to their tables . I have been playing without a hud and just observing players and taking notes and its been working before I got this Pokertracker trial. My plan is to transition to live poker at my local casino when I feel ready so Idk if I want to get too used to looking at stats

What is MDF?

Originally posted by SamoB25
What is MDF?

https://upswingpoker.com/glossary/minimum-defense-frequency-mdf/