KQs

1) 3bet preflop. KQs is strong enough for that. Opponent will coldcall hands like QJs, KJs, KTs.
2)Fold OTR, 65 is nuts so probably it is the only hand villain will play this way. On this limits rarely sees any bluff. Here you are thinking of his 90bbs bluff, doubt you will see it. With his line he can have it. Checking flop with his nut-draw, calling turn with good implied odds.
3) Villain is unknown so probably better to take a note and let it go there would be better spots.
4) If villain would like to bluff he would do that on earlier streets

Not 3betting KQs BB vs BU, wtf ?!

As played, fold but weird hand.

Imo preflop is fine. This can be a 3bet but I don't hate calling at all.
Postflop is weird but against that sizing I think you just have to fold. I don't see pure bluffs risking their whole stack when psb would have the same effect.

No, KQs is a no brain value 3bet against any type of opponent, if you don't even 3bet that you are way out of line, here Janda 3bets 17,50% and Snowie at least 14% !

17% 3bet is huge.
I 3bet around 10% there with polarized range. KQs is the strongest hand I have in my calling range. I think we should have semi strong holdings in our calling range too. I use w34z3l's ranges, he has KQs as a call BBvBTN vs 3x open.

If we 3bet too much we will face more 4bets and our calling range would be weak. You still make good money with KQs even by calling. I think it really doesn't matter if you 3bet this or not but calling is not a mistake imo. Against 2.5x open I would 3bet it.

My god I hadn't really pay attention to the sizing, my bad !

That said, versus a standard opening and a seamingly non absurd stealing range, 17% isn't huge at all and I don't know what you are calling "w34z3l's ranges", w34z3l has lots of ranges, including Janda's ones and I talked about it with him once and he said they were great. I would be really surprised to see him recommend not 3betting KQs (vs 2,5 or 3BB opening).

Anyway, so here's a weird sizing, what does it mean ? Does villain does it with all position and all hands or not ? Does that mean river he isn't supposed to have 56 ? In doubt only calling KQs preflop becomes good in any case, waiting to see villains's habits, so I take back all that I said before.

I believe these ranges are developed by w34z3l himself. He is selling those and his students get those too.
In his ranges vs 3x open KQs indeed is a call but vs 2.5x it is a 3bet and the 3bet range goes close to 13% and vs 2x open it is about 14%.

Without info it is hard to know why villain is opening this big. Hard to believe that it is his standard opening size

I would 3 bet preflop. As played, we have to fold the river (without further read).

Originally posted by la55i
I believe these ranges are developed by w34z3l himself. He is selling those and his students get those too.
In his ranges vs 3x open KQs indeed is a call but vs 2.5x it is a 3bet and the 3bet range goes close to 13% and vs 2x open it is about 14%.

Ok, interesting, it's strangely tight. Also it's remarquable to see that the %age doesn't change much from one sizing to another as there are at the same time more risks and rewards.

Originally posted by la55i
Without info it is hard to know why villain is opening this big. Hard to believe that it is his standard opening size

Oh we could often be surprised by the creativity of our opponents ♦
In fact I would bet that he always raise like that (except when he limp), because usually when I see that "weird and occasional sizing conveniently claming monsters" type of raises, it's way more big, like at least 6BB and sometimes even more.

It's interesting to see that the more experienced players definitely deviate from the starting hand charts etc. which we novices still use for our gameplay Obviously, the charts are a decent base to start your poker career with, but it interesting to see the expanded ranges you guys play with.

Just a quick question: would you also play KQo similar to what you guys are describing? I guess you wouldn't since you will have less outs to go to the flop with etc. For instance, would you still 3bet here with KQo instead of KQs?

KQo is ok to 3bet, and to cold call too. I will sometimes cold call with KQo, but KQs I will always 3bet, if not against opponent that is 6vpip/5pfr . Think KQs is just too strong to play passive.

Originally posted by TheTrain
It's interesting to see that the more experienced players definitely deviate from the starting hand charts etc. which we novices still use for our gameplay Obviously, the charts are a decent base to start your poker career with, but it interesting to see the expanded ranges you guys play with.

The truth is you never get over with ranges at poker, like chess players never get over with openings. The more complicated your thought process will be, the more structural or backward induction thinking you'll have to do and hence you'll often happen to come back to ranges and fine tuning it like crazy.

I'll even admit something to you : part of my work outside the tables these days focuses on learning ranges by heart. Yeah, I know, some of you might find that lame. But it does help my game and there's no way around it.
I think too many players get the whole range thinking thing only half way around : they reason mainly with their hand alone vs villain's range. They don't get that it has to be your whole range (and thus where your actual hand stands into that) vs villain's one.
I spend time asking myself if I prefer to play with Janda's ranges of Snowie's ranges in a given spot, I simulate boards and thought experiments about what to expect, what I can get away with vs villains at my stakes etc...

For example if I find that on a certain type of flop I can't decently defend 60% of my flating preflop range vs a cbet and that type of flop happens to fall quite often, then I have a problem and I need to go back to changing that range.
I like the good old HH analysis and such but I know some good players (some could even be called "pros" or whatever) that spend more time working on spliting ranges like that than on actually just thinking about a real hand (and when they do their analyse is deeper because they talk about the whole ranges, not just "oh you have that combo you have that equity") so they have inspired me to try and to the same work and I could only advice you to try it too !

Originally posted by TheTrain
Just a quick question: would you also play KQo similar to what you guys are describing? I guess you wouldn't since you will have less outs to go to the flop with etc. For instance, would you still 3bet here with KQo instead of KQs?

Hard to say given the weirdness of the HH and the lots of things we described ^^
The fact that the hand is suited doesn't change that much for KQ, generally KQs and KQo are put in the same ranges in practice but everything is possible, there are exceptions, for exemple in Janda's way BU vs UTG you 3bet "bluff" KQo whereas you just call KQs. Snowie 3bets both (actually not all combos but whatever) because he is sickly allergic to calling and sadly there's no doctor for computers

In the HH if you talk about the line with calling KQs, then KQo should be a call too because I strongly doubt that KQs would be in the bottom of the calling range (that would then put KQo one of the best "bluff 3bets" as one of the best hands we can't call with, it's like that you build polarized raising ranges).

Pfew, what a long post, I hope I didn't bore you

Hi ! I was reading the interesting conversation, and had some question
Why do we adapt ranges depending on the size of the open? I mean people are supposed to open with the same size indiferently from the strength of their hand. Like somebody who opens 3x from button is going to do it with all his range, isn't it? It is not like they open 2x weak hands and 3x strong hands.

Yes they should use the same sizing with good hands and bad hands. Nowadays someone can open 2.5x from every position.
When someone opens smaller, it means he can also open wider. Because of our better odds and villains wider range we can start defending more.

Let's take BBvSB for example. SB should steal with a wide range and maybe he has noticed that ppl fold way too much even min raises. That is why he will open 2bb with a huge range. Does that mean we should still defend the same range? No. In that case we should widen our own range too.

Ah ok, so small size means wider range. And thus we can adapt got it ! thanks !

Originally posted by SuperChompa
Ah ok, so small size means wider range. And thus we can adapt got it ! thanks !

Not sure, small size only PERMITS wider range theoretically ! Villain can be a big fish betting all over the place as far as we know.
But when we are on the big blind, the size determins the odds and that's the real incentive (and why it's such a pain in the ass to design defending blind ranges, we must take every sizing we encounter regularly into account).

3.5bb BTN open is the new sizing from Snowie. I have not tested it much live. It is supposed to extract more value from aggressive defenders. I guess it is 2016...I don't know.

Originally posted by MyFloXyBabY
No, KQs is a no brain value 3bet against any type of opponent, if you don't even 3bet that you are way out of line, here Janda 3bets 17,50% and Snowie at least 14% !

Even if KQs were a profitable 3-bet, it is more profitable to just call, at least if you don't play perfectly postflop, and that is difficult, really difficult, to do. People worry too much about preflop and go astray with unrealistic ranges suitable only for robots with small stacks.

Lol, it's quite discouraging hearing something like this after I went on a full ramble about how we design preflop ranges to play postflop consistently (and the day before I went on a ramble about the importance of not being hypnotized by sheer equity, moreover equity on only one street, and about not thinking only because one line has equity with a pretty hand that line is to be taken)...

What can I say then ? If you find playing KQs vs BU is hard, well, then maybe only play AA, it's easier. Good luck have fun !
As for me I'll continue to "worry too much about preflop" if you'll allow it