Originally posted by JaredTendler
Spoiler
Originally posted by franeczek
Hi Jared.
I have problems with hate-losing tilt. Basically after I had a bun run for 10Bi or so I started to play awfully and spew like crazy.
I did a ton of job to improve have both general tilt profile and separate for each type of tilt.
Here is my hate-losing tilt profile:
Originally posted by franeczek
Hate-losing tilt profile
1.What cause you to tilt?
I have a problem that even after one bad session I start to question my game and my ability to be able to win anything any time in the future. So it is almost like I couldn't understand the variance as well as I thought I do. So as soon as things go badly I start to spew money. I look for the action, do some questionable calls like it was all about winning and like I wouldn't allow myself to have a losing streak. It seems like I was losing control with myself and I wasn't able to click the right button despite knowing which it should be. Loosing makes me incredibly miserable, I feel pity for myself and that I am a failure and wont be winning ever again. There is the Anger that increase in me and feel of looking for revenge. I start to personalize the software and the other players that they try to fuck me and take my money.I just want to be winning again so badly that I start to spew and I end up feeling humiliated and unable to play anymore
2.What are the things you say to yourself out loud, or to other players, when frustration start raising and when tilted?
-it doesn't matter what I do I will be losing anyway
-I am cursed
-fuckin soft try to fuck me again
-of course that the idiot hit how would it be different
-why do I suck so badly?
-you will never make it because you are so fuckin stupid
3.How do you know that you are on tilt? What's the first thing you notice?
When it goes to hate-losing tilt It happens mostly because of 2 things:
-I go against my gut. So I know what the right action is yet I can't click the right button. It throws me instantly off the balance
-I do some snap decision do to fear and my brain malfunctioning and don't think clearly about the decision itself and I end up doing some huge decision mostly on the Turn or on the River that is wrong and I get extremely pissed on myself and my inability to control myself.
It almost seems like I was doing the same mistakes over and over again and my inability to improve cause me to tilt.
The first thing I notice are the conflicting thoughts and the illogical thoughts that come. My mind start to malfunction; I can't focus fully on the game e.g. I can't recall the action and I am unable to say what was the action on previous streets. Additionally I start to look for revenge so I want to win the money back from the guy I won it from.
4.How does your body react to tilt?
-my face get really warm (especially my cheeks)
-my heart rate increase heavily
-my breath is shallow
-there is the pressure and overall alertness caused by Anger
5.Can you identify the point when tilt starts shutting down your thinking?
I would say it mostly happen when I go against my gameplan. So I am unable to control myself anymore and do some weird stuff because I no longer care. So the" fuck it I call" effect. There is the urge to keep playing but I feel really sad and unable to stay in control. My whole body start to shake. Additionally I need to stop waiting for the big blind cause usually I wait till the end of the round where I am usually capable of spewing one or two stacks waiting to quit.
6.At what point do you take action to deal with tilt?
I have a solid strategy to counteract the tilt. Usually I keep talking out loud the injecting logic statements and try to ignore the flawed logic statements created by my mind that I know that don't help me at all. So usually as soon as I get to the conflicting thoughts I try to stay in control but most of the time I get to the level when I can't anymore.
There is the pattern when if I keep losing for like 30-40min and I can't win anything I start to lose the control and start to spew. I look for the action and for some winnings so I could get my money back.
I have also a general tilt profile here in case you wanted to look at:
dropbox link
I also wrote a ton of mental hand histories and did quite a bit work with fear (fear profile, solving the fear problems with "fear hand histories")
I did shit ton of work and there is slim to none progress. Any thoughts or ideas?? I can try literally anything. Would be gratefull for some insights and ideas, if you can suggest me some books to read I will be gratefull too.
I mean I did a lot of work with the stuff from your book but I seem to be equally stuck as I used to be before doing all of the job. 
Hello again, I hope my answer to you during the seminar was a helpful start. The more I read into this, the more I'm convinced that the reason you haven't solved the problem comes down to missing the exact cause of it. That doesn't mean the work you've put in is wasted, far from it. You have a ton of detail here, so the answers are here, there just hard to see.
Confidence is definitely the real issue here and as the hate-losing tilt, quickly turns to desperation tilt and the source of the desperation is are deep seeded negative feelings about your game. Where did these develop? How long have you had them? Is confidence something you struggle with in your personal life or in other things that you've put as much time and energy into poker? The reason I ask is that I wonder if part of what fuels the desperation is an unconscious feeling that if you were to win that you could escape the negative feelings you have about your game.
Before we get too deep into strategy, I want to know more about this confidence stuff. Feel free to also look through chapter 8 and see what else applies to you.
You're getting closer!
Yeah the confidence problem is something that I used to struggle a lot in the past. I already read the chapter about confidence; did some work.
For a long time I used to be like ok nl50-nl100 grinder making solid money in my country however never moved up not because of the lack of skill but to avoid my issues. So it was easier to me playing 5h of nl50 with winrate of like 8bb than playin nl200 with like 2-3bb even if my hourly would be greater in the long run playing higher stakes I just tried to play like variance free play. then suddenly I got crushed by swing when I lost a ton running something like 150BI below EV and it literally destroyed me and my confidence. It happened like 8 months ago but I haven't recovered still despite all of the effor I took for improving.
It is really frustrating that I used to make shit ton of money while doing no work in regards to my play (and still had like 8bb/100 on nl50 and 5bb/100 nl100 with little to no efford from my side) and now I do a ton of work and it seems sometimes that nothing works.
So for now I created mental hand histories based on the chapter thought that it is ok idea
Illusion of learning:
Spoiler
Illusion of learning
1.Describe the problem
I have problems with tolerating my mistakes. It cause me almost instantly to tilt because I get pissed on myself and it feels like overwhelming because many of the mistakes I have been doing for a long time and I have been struggling to fix them. So I consciously know what the right play is but either due to my flawed logic or due to pressure I am unable to click the right button and it throws me almost instantly off the balance. there is also a problem with me wishing and not accepting the things as they are e.g. I wish i didn't have the swing that crushed me and forced to move down, if only I was saving the money and do all of the work when I was running good, wishing that poker was easier and I didn't have the mental issues that I have, wishing that one day I would just play perfect poker just like that without all of the effort I need to do every day with close to none results. So I have problems with accepting the reality as it is because it is quite bad lately.
2.Why does it make logical sense that you would feel,react or think that way?
Sometimes It is hard to accept realities as it is and the lack of control that there is. So I want to improve so badly but the mistakes that I do over and over again seem like a huge setback from that. so it is really annoying that I know what I should do yet I can;t execute the right strategy.
When it goes to wishing it is more cause by my inability to accept the things as they are so the life is sometimes pretty brutal and hard and the only thing you can do is keep going through hell. So it is tempting to escape from all of it to the imagined reality where everything is easy and effortless.
3.Why is that logic flawed?
Because it ignores the realities of the learning process. It is hard to learn things to the unconscious level and the same for unlearning stuff from there. It is the same with adictions and habits. You know it how difficult it is to get rid of stuff that you don't want to be there yet it is hell of a fight to be able to do that and many people fail miserably being unable to do that. So both learning stuff and unlearning stuff is not easy and you need to create some solid strategy that take the realities of learning process into consideration. You know that simply by watching someones video you won't learn it all so expecting that to show up instantly and that you will be able to execute it correctly while playing is retarded.
When it goes to wishing you know that is isn't true. Believing in wishes bring you more harm than good. It is the same as you used to dream about the ideal you that finally will become the person you always wanted just there is the catch you need to do the whole job to become that guy no matter how hard and brutal it might seem. There won't be a situation that suddenly you will wake up one day and you will be the ideal you. You need a strategy and determination to be able to execute it. It won't get easier but if you keep working hard and pushing yourself you will be closer to your goal with every step.
4.What is the correct way to handle the situation?
Firstly you need a strategy that is working and that will let you improve. You know that your current strategy (or lack of strategy for learning) proved not to work. You already have the mental game of poker part 2 so it is a good start do the work from the learning chapter and see how the different strategy works and if it works rather than relying on strategy that doesn't work (e.g. watching the video,making some notes and believing that you will know it all). It is more complicated than you thought to learn things for good, same is true for things that you want to unlearn of. However difficult strategy that works is way better than a strategy that might sound simple but doesn't work at all.
When it goes wishing you need to establish mindset focused on the things that are ;rather than believing that something would or wouldn't become reality. the only way you can change anything is due to work and working hard. There are no shortcuts. So keep improving and some day at least some of the wishes (that are logically possible) might become true but only due to the work you have done not by some miraculous
Why is that correction correct?
It is focused on the reality. The learning process is far more difficult and complicated that you would like it to be but the things is that your wishing that it would be easier etc. doesn't make it any easier. I need a strategy and work hard to be able to execute it every day rather than relying on strategies that proven not to work. It is difficult and it is hard but it is the only way that you can reliably improve
Illusion of permanence:
Spoiler
Illusion of permanence
1.Describe the problem
When I run bad I think that it will never end. I feel crushed and hopeless it is extremely difficult to start even one session and I tilt really easy. It feels like the more I want something the further away it is from me. I mean i still have big goals but I seem almost unable to reach them and thats frustrating. The problem is that this frustration cause me to tilt and spew and that is exactly opposite from what I want. There is also the problem that I feel almost ashamed with my results; I used to be like a great reg for 2 years maybe not the best but solid poker pro who would make a lot of money and suddenly 6 months later I feel almost like I was done. It is shame for me to talk with friends that I used to play and talk with and they play like nl200/nl400+ and I can't lately even move back to nl100 and I am stuck at nl50. They are surprised and ask what happened and I am unable to say what (maybe despite the fact that I still tilt a lot but maybe a little bit less than in the past). I feel disappointed with my results and how others see me if I can't even move back to play the fucking nl100 and I am stuck to nl50 due to poor results and shitty volume. It almost seems like there is no chance for me and no matter what I do and how hard I work I am doomed for failure.
2.Why does it make logical sense that you would feel,react or think that way?
I have had pretty much shitty results for like last 8 months. I wasn't able to change that much and claw my way back to play when I wanted and achieving the quality I expected myself to play. It is true that I still struggle a lot but I do a lot of work so it feels like no matter what I do I am doomed. I feel hopeless because of that and it cause me not to learn and no to try to improve anymore and to look for something else in my life. It isn't all that much about my skill or intelligence but more about my inability to improve and inability to control myself under pressure. So it feels like there is slim to none chance of improving. the reality is that I am stuck and it is hard for me to figure the way out by myself cause nothing seem to work the way I want it to work.
3.Why is that logic flawed?
Firstly to be honest I wasn't working that hard in the past. It has been the last month when I created the mental study group and pushed myself really hard to change. In reality in the past there was more self pitty and feeling that it is all unfair than a solid work and trying to improve. Additionally you know that you can't predict future. If you keep trying there is some chance that it will turn around but if you stop there is only one result possible that you will be still in a shitty place doing something in your life that you never wanted. So it better to try and push hard so you will have the best chance to succeed. If you look on your life you have been a great learner your whole life so why do you think that this time it won't happen? Even the best poker mental coach is telling you that you do a great job and it will get better so why you don't trust his opinion??
4.What is the correct way to handle the situation?
There is only now. Past doesn't exist so does future. So focus on working hard today and stop creating some predictions about future cause you can't predict if something can or cannot change. You can always try to change your approach and strategy and figure the things out. There isn't really any alternative. Keep working and keep pushing to solve your problems and the solutions and at some point you will finally break the thing down and succeed if you work hard enough and push your self to the limits. Bad times won't last forever you know that but if you do the work today and improve a lot next time if something bad happen you will be stronger and prepared. Just think about it as an opportunity to learn rather than a failure. Don't let your fixed mind to trick you that you are a failure because you struggle to accomplish what you want now. Learn from your mistakes and embrace them and sooner or later with your hard-working mindset and determination you will be crushing the life like you never did in the past.
Why is that correction correct?
Ultimately I know that the whole problem and my inability to move up and to crush the games is self created. I created a ton of pressure for myself and I stuck to regain the confidence. However I also know that now with the help I got I identified what the core issue is so with that knowledge I can work my ass off for the solution and as soon as I will get it I will be able to improve a lot and leave the past behind me and it won't define me anymore. I am one step closer to get what I want so it would be retarded to give up now.
Illusion of control:
Spoiler
Illusion of control
1. Describe the problem
I believe that I can win every session or even almost every hand. I get extremely sad after losing even one spot. If I lose for like 30min+ there is a big chance that I will spew due to desperation tilt and desperate attempt to win my money back.
I believe that other players both fish and regs are retards and their only right is give me their money and I got extremely pissed when it doesn't happen. Many times I will check their stats on PTR to confirm my superiority over them so I could feel better. I get more and more pissed when I either do mistakes or can't control myself and spew. It is almost like hate vs myself, hate that I can't control my reactions and hate that I can't become the person I always wanted or achieving my goals due to my incredibly poor performance.
There is also the enlightenment tilt when I believe that It is my right to win and I deserve it so the other players have no right to win the money from me. I also do some questionable calls so I would be able to win the money back because of my superiority
2.Why does it make logical sense that you would feel,react or think that way?
Sometimes when I run great it almost feel like I am never supposed to lose again and it feels great. Additionally I started to work extremely hard almost every day and it gets more and more frustrating that I can't make progress and it makes me feel really sad. I used to make shit ton of money from poker, never learning, never working on my tilt yet I was making shit ton of money simply because I had ok understanding of how to play. So logically if I work so hard the results should be even better than they used to be in the past. Yet they aren't and I feel almost like a rat in the cage that try to find any way out but there isn't any and it sometimes make me feel hopeless. So I used to be a huge winner then I got crushed by a swing that almost made me broken but I have been doing my best to recover yet there is slim to none progress.
3.Why is that logic flawed?
I focus too much on things that I can't control. Life isn't fair on unfair there is just variance. Logically I know that running as bad as I was sucks but still the last 8 months there were many things that I could do different yet I hadn't. If I had worked the last 8 months as hard as the last month I would be in a different place. Additionally not making enough volume is a huge factor too. There are things that you can't control directly e.g. how you run but there is still shit ton of work that you can do with the things that you do control
4.What is the correct way to handle the situation?
I need to accept that there are things out of my control. I am not perfect and the world isn't neither. However what are my options? I can push hard again and do my best with a chance to win or give up and never achieve anything that I dreamed of. The past doesn't exist there is only now and the past mistakes don't define me. Past failures don't define my future. There is always a chance for achieving your dreams but only if I fight for it every day. There is no place for dreaming and wishing just hard work that might pays off but only if I push for it.
Why is that correction correct?
Because it is focused on the things that I do control instead of believing or wishing that I could control things that are out of my control. I know what my weaknesses and problems are believing that they will suddenly disappear is retarded. The only thing I can do is to commit to change every day and doing my best to be able to succeed again.
Here are other mental hand histiories that I thought might be related
Hesitation to grind:
Spoiler
Hesitation to grind
1. Describe the problem
I always had problems with doing proper volume. Still now most of the time I don't even want to start to play. So it is more like a downward spiral. I don't play because I don't want to and that makes me even more miserable because I am even further from what I want to achieve in my life. It makes me feel pretty sad cause I am not able to play but the only way to change anything is to play 
Additionally I feel bad when I play cause I feel like I am not myself because of all of the emotions that I am unable to handle.
There is like a huge gap for me between knowing what to do and really doing it. Somehow I can't push myself to do the thing despite the fact I know what I should do and It has been for a while like that but I still can't.
It is the same with grinding. I just know that I should but because I don't like it I don't do it but I can't change anything if I don't play and raise the money so I would be able to really change something.
1. Why does it make logical sense that you would react,think or feel that way?
Poker itself is really difficult. The Variance is so huge that sometimes it is overwhelming and the way I feel when I play or after a bad session makes it really hard to handle. I just don't want to feel the way I feel because of poker. So thats why I avoid grinding. Because of that I try to avoid the thing that trigger my emotions so I want to be forced to feel them.
There is also the fear of failure. I am worried that I want achieve my goals and want make things that I ever wanted. Sometimes when I struggle while playing I feel like a complete failure like I was the worst in the world. So for me not playing is a way to protect my ego. I don't have to face myself being me so I don't need to feel all of the feeling that I feel when I play.
1. Why is that logic flawed?
Poker doesn't create anything by itself. It only triggers the things that are already in me. So if I want to change I need to work on it. Avoiding problems and my emotions won't make them disappearing. It will be always there unless I do something to change it and make it work. I won't change simply by thinking that I want to become someone else I need to do something to make it happen.
I want to move and achieve my goals but it won't happen if I don't push myself to do things that need to be done.
So ultimately I need to face the problem (my emotions and the way I feel about myself) and start to fight it cause avoiding it won't change anything.
1. What is the correct way to handle the situation?
The correct way is to start fighting with the problems and start to fight to become who I always wanted. Avoiding problems will not change anything you need to face it.
So I can't make the money any other way than playing poker and improving both as a person and as a player. It is simple like that. I might avoid the problem when I don't play but in reality the problem is still there and as long as I don't do anything in my power to change it it will be there.
The poker itself isn't the problem it only triggers things that are already there so by avoid playing poker I give myself no chance to change as a person.
1. Why is that correction correct?
It is correct because it is realistic. I avoid poker like it was the core issue but it isn't. It just uncover the things that are already in me. I might not like them but that doesn't change the fact that this is me and I have to accept it. I need to start treating poker like a tool to improve rather than the problem itself cause it isn't true. So now by not playing I don't avoid the problem I avoid the way to solve many of the problems I have and the tool I can use for that. It is completely retarded.
Fear of failure:
Spoiler
Fear of failure
1. Describe the problem
I used to be a very competetive person. I always wanted the best and be the best, good was never an option. Lossing always make me feeling like shit and unhappy.
The problem is it makes me worried of even trying. Firstly I always expect to fail so I preprare myself to loosing. Secondly I always underestimate my skill so how good I am in particular topic and will just expect that I am not good enough and I won't even try.
I am even worried about faicing my fears e.g. It took me like 5 days to write the mental hand hisory cause I didn't want to face the problem.
It isn't that I am worried about loosing/failing itself I just avoid all of the emotional pressure and things it brings into my life. So I just avoid feeling badly about miself and the misery.
1. Why does it make logical sense that you would react think or feel that way?
At some level I think I just try to protect my ego and how I feel about myself. So I just avoid the source of the emotional rollercoaster which is connected with trying and failing. Basically I am not worried about failure itself but about all of the emotion it brings to the degree that it wil make me not even trying just due to the emotional badge it brings.
So I will chosse not trying just to feel better and not trying instead of trying with the risk of failing and feeling terrible about myself.
1. Why is that logic flawed?
Emotions aren't real they are just core reaction of the mind so they don't change the reality just the way I feel about myself,others and the world. So the only thing that fear makes for me is that it force me not to try. The problem is that when I try I can win and achieve the result I want but when I try and I fail it is the same result as if I didn't try due to fear of failure. The only difference are the emotions caused by me trying and failing. So basically not trying due to fear of failure is already a failure cause result is the same just I might feel slightly better
1. What is the correct way to handle the situation?
The correct way is not taking failure as something personal.It is just a fact that happens and it doesn't make you worse,miserable,idiot etc. If I try I might win if I don't I already failed. The only difference are emotions themselves that failing cause but I just need better way to understand them and hadle them better instead of avoiding them. So trying might make me happy when I finally will achieve what I dream of while not trying due to fear of failure will naver take me anywhere.
Fear of failure is counterproductive and is not contributing at all to my life. It just force me not to achieve my goals and dreams.
1. Why is that correction correct?
The result of not trying and failing is the same so being pissed because I failed is illogical. The only way I can fail is when I don't try cause that way I failed for sure. As long as I try I didn't fail. Just emotions trick me to think that way.
Fear of failure makes me not trying so I can't really change anything in my life that way. I need to try even if there is a risk that I will be hurt sometimes and will feel badly. However that are just emotions and they don't create the reality. I am the only person that can make me happy and I can choose how I feel about myself. Failing is just a fact is nothing personal so why do I need to feel bad about it?
It is all far form perfect cause it is first time I digged deeper into the confidence issues but give that you have your wedding soon I wanted to post it today so you would be able to give me some feedback cause if not now I will have to wait probably till July to get some feedback which I would preffer to avoid cause I desperately need to improve and improve now.
Best Regards,
Frank
