Some stuggles with online poker. mental game

If you know you are beat you should fold for sure.
Maybe the thread https://forums.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?threadid=181760 can help you to deal with this.

Cheers,
SDK1987

The only hand you beat on the turn by calling is a bluff (presuming your opponent is not crazy). Your odds for winning the hand by catching a miracle card was about 10 to 1. Why would you pay 1 to 1 pot odds for that? You didn't get robbed, you gave your money away.

If emotions get in the way of sound decision making then take a break. If it looks like a bad idea to call, always go on the pot odds and forget what you're feeling if nothing else.

Originally posted by HennieP

If emotions get in the way of sound decision making then take a break. If it looks like a bad idea to call, always go on the pot odds and forget what you're feeling if nothing else.

Its easy to say that, but without adressing the real problem "believing the game is fixed" i wont be able to stop this kind of play, looking at my hands doesn't help me im -EV with KK, AK and QQ all in preflop, these are supposed to be profitable spots

To the OP: Why are you playing 25NL? You're nowhere near on that level in today's games. Move down in stakes where you belong and start constructing a solid foundation. You're not going to win at 25NL right now no matter what you do.

I think your mistake starts preflop mate. By opening A/7s UTG you need to tighten up imo.

EDIT: In addition I would take a note about the player in the SB. He calls way to light with 5/4s.

Everybody here is talking like it is such a clear fold, however... I think this is (except when you have a heavy read on a opponent) a call.

If the player is a fish, he will do this kind of stuff with hands that are worse here too (for example TT, JJ, QQ, 87s etc.)

If the player is not a fish, he will do this kind of stuff with hands that are drawing as well, so he will take these lines mostly with clubs, and ofcourse some straights. However as someone else said, why would you ever do this with a full house, makes no sense at all.

I don't think this call is spewy in the long run.

Originally posted by Tim128
Everybody here is talking like it is such a clear fold, however... I think this is (except when you have a heavy read on a opponent) a call.

If the player is a fish, he will do this kind of stuff with hands that are worse here too (for example TT, JJ, QQ, 87s etc.)

If the player is not a fish, he will do this kind of stuff with hands that are drawing as well, so he will take these lines mostly with clubs, and ofcourse some straights. However as someone else said, why would you ever do this with a full house, makes no sense at all.

I don't think this call is spewy in the long run.

Villain's range here is largely just speculation. What's not is that opening A7s UTG is definitely not profitable in the long run. These are exactly the kind of spots we get ourselves into when we play weak hands OOP and flop something we stick to.

Originally posted by TakingAShot

Originally posted by Tim128
Everybody here is talking like it is such a clear fold, however... I think this is (except when you have a heavy read on a opponent) a call.

If the player is a fish, he will do this kind of stuff with hands that are worse here too (for example TT, JJ, QQ, 87s etc.)

If the player is not a fish, he will do this kind of stuff with hands that are drawing as well, so he will take these lines mostly with clubs, and ofcourse some straights. However as someone else said, why would you ever do this with a full house, makes no sense at all.

I don't think this call is spewy in the long run.

Villain's range here is largely just speculation. What's not is that opening A7s UTG is definitely not profitable in the long run. These are exactly the kind of spots we get ourselves into when we play weak hands OOP and flop something we stick to.

Yeah I can definitely see why opening A7s UTG will be a slightly losing open, but what I was trying to say, given hero has elected to open this hand, I think he played fine post-flop.

Originally posted by Tim128

Originally posted by TakingAShot

Originally posted by Tim128
Everybody here is talking like it is such a clear fold, however... I think this is (except when you have a heavy read on a opponent) a call.

If the player is a fish, he will do this kind of stuff with hands that are worse here too (for example TT, JJ, QQ, 87s etc.)

If the player is not a fish, he will do this kind of stuff with hands that are drawing as well, so he will take these lines mostly with clubs, and ofcourse some straights. However as someone else said, why would you ever do this with a full house, makes no sense at all.

I don't think this call is spewy in the long run.

Villain's range here is largely just speculation. What's not is that opening A7s UTG is definitely not profitable in the long run. These are exactly the kind of spots we get ourselves into when we play weak hands OOP and flop something we stick to.

Yeah I can definitely see why opening A7s UTG will be a slightly losing open, but what I was trying to say, given hero has elected to open this hand, I think he played fine post-flop.

It's just that the flop absolutely crushes the blind's calling range, you're in a 3 way pot, and the board is paired. No, I don't think GII here is well played. When SB donk shoves the turn, I think he's turning his hand face up.

So I did some calculating in Equilab

Pot odds: You need 52,48% to break even

Villains Range: 88-66,33,76s,8c7c,Ac5c,5c4c
I even assigned some semi bluffs with A/5suited and 88 that is afraid of an overcard.

Check here for Equilab calculations

So this is in the end a clear EDITED call

Your pot-odd calculations are wrong, you never need more than 50% equity.
Calculation = amount you call / pot after you call = 19.55 / 52.15 = 37% which makes it a clear call.

(When you consider the rake it changes to 19.55/50.15 = 39%)

Poker is give and take, a sum zero game that is played within moments of clarity and the unknown. When playing the unknown, then knowing how others played up to this moment especially when playing for actual money then the abstract has to be known prior to saying my game knows the opponents range in this moment or exact hand by the way other similar moments have been played.

Otherwise, it becomes how do they play draws or made hands? Are they card dependent? Do they only play for the nuts for big pots whether they are monster made hands or monster draws? Do they always seem to know what nuts they are playing for versus other opponents in key moments? Do you give your game options to slow down on certain board texture or speed up for the same reason? As some examples.

Does one pair mean more to your opponents versus your range of play, game theory, sequence betting, percentage of bets that are relevant to the pot that would allow an exact hand or what they do not have in this moment to fold, slow down, and speed up as options? All of this to know the moment? That may or may not depend on the range of play or real time game play? Counter strategies, counter game theory, any creative option to help move the mental game towards small increments of change. As some more examples.

Whether it takes care of the problem or not all mistakes still exist even when playing your “A” game. Some moments still can be out of our control but recognition skills, expectations of opponents bets, checks, check raises, re-raises, and folds should have a mental thoughts about these moments before the moment even happens from experience because the game is inherited with implied mistakes that happen within some degree, and this depends on the in-depth knowing of each player dependent on each players ability.

This is where the real mental skill lies to be developed and everyone playing has the same option to create or play within the abstract, the mental, and within the mental the mettle of each person to resolve their moments based on each person’s experience. So, the experience is there in your game unleash the abstract concepts of poker on the game itself while not trying to out think the opponent by knowing the moments better than the field your game is playing against within any level.

Make the opponent become the thinker in moments you know more than your opponent because once you get into the head of thinker by knowing more than the thinker then resolve from pressure is always on your opponent? Then it becomes a game of resolve instead of just cards because we are all dealt premium hands in moments, these moments of hands playing themselves by what is dealt for example, but how do we show profit that can be made from the abstract of repeated moments for our resolve to bring down dead money pots or get paid off with marginal hands when knowing more than the thinker in these moments?

Originally posted by TakingAShot

Originally posted by Tim128
Everybody here is talking like it is such a clear fold, however... I think this is (except when you have a heavy read on a opponent) a call.

Villain's range here is largely just speculation. What's not is that opening A7s UTG is definitely not profitable in the long run. These are exactly the kind of spots we get ourselves into when we play weak hands OOP and flop something we stick to.

I opened A7s UTG because the blind was a fish, and wanted to play a pot IP with a weaker player, probably with a better hand, how is that not an open raise, from UTG?

Originally posted by TakingAShot
To the OP: Why are you playing 25NL? You're nowhere near on that level in today's games. Move down in stakes where you belong and start constructing a solid foundation. You're not going to win at 25NL right now no matter what you do.

Here is my last 40k hands at NL25, the only reason im a break even player is because i feel like im getting cheated by pokerstars and i say screw it i call. Im down $180 with KK all in preflop $170 with QQ and $150 with AK, and when the worst card comes i feel the game is cheating me, this is my problem

I think you guys are miss reading what i need help with, there is no question in my mind this guy has 45, I posted this hand because it illustrated my tilt problem, in the moment i say fuck this, this game is fixed and click call even though i know im beat.

Originally posted by Tim128
Your pot-odd calculations are wrong, you never need more than 50% equity.
Calculation = amount you call / pot after you call = 19.55 / 52.15 = 37% which makes it a clear call.

(When you consider the rake it changes to 19.55/50.15 = 39%)

Yeah sorry your right I ment its a clear call. Typed in the wrong numbers my bad. So the call is good. I mean there are so many draws that missed.

@Frozen. I mean why arent you moving down if you just break in NL25? I mean its a good idea to rebuild your confidence in lower stakes. If you really think PS is after your I suggest switching to a different site. But in all honesty currently it looks like you are on a bad side of varriance. I mean 40k hands isn't that much to be honest. So I would suggest moving down. Good luck mate and happy grinding

@FrozenElf: Your mental game is horrific and needs a ton of work. I'm not criticizing you as I, and probably just about everyone else, started there. How do you expect to play solid poker if you think you're being cheated all the time? If that's what you're considering while playing a hand, you're definitely doing it wrong.

As someone who has had 3+ months of run bad in the micros when I first started playing, I can tell you right now that the sites are not cheating you and you're playing real poker. That's definitely a non issue. Variance is monstrous in this game but variance is not the issue here. The issue here is your mental game, understanding of poker, and application of that understanding at the tables. As of right now, I don't know what videos you're watching on here because you're really not getting it at all.

Originally posted by Zivermiver

Originally posted by Tim128
Your pot-odd calculations are wrong, you never need more than 50% equity.
Calculation = amount you call / pot after you call = 19.55 / 52.15 = 37% which makes it a clear call.

(When you consider the rake it changes to 19.55/50.15 = 39%)

Yeah sorry your right I ment its a clear call. Typed in the wrong numbers my bad. So the call is good. I mean there are so many draws that missed.

@Frozen. I mean why arent you moving down if you just break in NL25? I mean its a good idea to rebuild your confidence in lower stakes. If you really think PS is after your I suggest switching to a different site. But in all honesty currently it looks like you are on a bad side of varriance. I mean 40k hands isn't that much to be honest. So I would suggest moving down. Good luck mate and happy grinding

You know very well what "break even" really means on the internet and the fact is that although Stars is by no means the toughest site to play on, she's just nowhere near a 25NL level in today's games. That's bordering semi pro and the regs at those stakes are going to be putting in 80-120 hours of play/study a week. That's just how it is today.

I drew my money off the site now, i am thinking about starting at NL2 with $20, that way if i build a bankroll back up to $1000 then i know its not fixed, i would have the right mindset for online poker then

Originally posted by FrozenElf
I drew my money off the site now, i am thinking about starting at NL2 with $20, that way if i build a bankroll back up to $1000 then i know its not fixed, i would have the right mindset for online poker then

Again, if you go into this expecting to win or else deducing that online poker is rigged, you're going to lose that $20, too. How do you expect to be competitive at a game if you constantly think that some nefarious force is "out to get you"?

I swear to you, it's not rigged in the slightest. Put in a ton of volume at the same stake and you'll see all sorts of crazy, radical things happen as the result of variance. Until you start to understand math, variance, and deep post flop play, the cash game is always going to feel like a ripoff to you. That's what it is - The sharks rip the fish off until the fish become a shark themselves. Or don't.

Originally posted by TakingAShot

Originally posted by FrozenElf
I drew my money off the site now, i am thinking about starting at NL2 with $20, that way if i build a bankroll back up to $1000 then i know its not fixed, i would have the right mindset for online poker then

Again, if you go into this expecting to win or else deducing that online poker is rigged, you're going to lose that $20, too. How do you expect to be competitive at a game if you constantly think that some nefarious force is "out to get you"?

I swear to you, it's not rigged in the slightest. Put in a ton of volume at the same stake and you'll see all sorts of crazy, radical things happen as the result of variance. Until you start to understand math, variance, and deep post flop play, the cash game is always going to feel like a ripoff to you. That's what it is - The sharks rip the fish off until the fish become a shark themselves. Or don't.

I know this is why i need help with this, i have never really earned the right to play at NL25 anyway someone payed for me, i am doing mental hand historys trying to correct my faulty logic, i think the bottom line is i dont understand variance, this is whats crippling my game because its making me make really bad "eh fuck it" calls

I think it will help starting out at the bottom, i dont know