[Closed] $10 Mtt Jj

Dont really put CO on an A here - surely at these levels would reraise with AK and fold weak aces to raise?
For that reason I also would bet the flop.
Once he calls flop you then have to think he has a hand he wants to play so either he does have an ace or he has a pocket pair.
Turn bet if called will probably commit you to check fold the river so I prefer check.
On the river you have to figure you are ahead and i definately put hin on pp by then so value bet is good.
I guess you could make an argument for a check call and if you value bet and he shoves you do have a tough decision. That said if you are confident you are ahead, and there is really no reason to think otherwise, ie if you also put him on pp, then value betting is a must, as he is very likely to call.

i would c/c this flop...a lot of ppl just think they have to bet here if checked to
the turn i would keep on checking and the river i would bet. But i think your betsize on the river isnt optimal. I would bet around 1,8k. Betting 4,8k you will mostly only get called if you are behind vs. a Q

Originally posted by rhinoneil
On the river you have to figure you are ahead and i definately put hin on pp by then .........
I guess you could make an argument for a check call and if you value bet and he shoves you do have a tough decision.

i'll check call river. for bluf induce etc, i dont think that smaler pockets will call river, couse imo if he had 77-TT he will bet turn when u check

Originally posted by TheRebuz
i'll check call river. for bluf induce etc, i dont think that smaler pockets will call river, couse imo if he had 77-TT he will bet turn when u check

This.

Originally posted by TheRebuz

Originally posted by rhinoneil
On the river you have to figure you are ahead and i definately put hin on pp by then .........
I guess you could make an argument for a check call and if you value bet and he shoves you do have a tough decision.

i'll check call river. for bluf induce etc, i dont think that smaler pockets will call river, couse imo if he had 77-TT he will bet turn when u check

what range do you think he is bluffing on the river and not the turn?

HE CAN BLUF WITH ANY 2 CARDS --- pockets ( that will be value bet in his eyes), JK, JT etc.... but i dont think that he will call on river with weaker hand than JJ ( if he is VERY VERY BIG DONK ofcourse, than he will call u with any pockets even with K hi there)

but with that board i dont see a call on river with smaler pockets than JJ, imo he give up that hand when he checks turn, if he had some hand ( pockets or qx) that he will want to call river bet he will bet turn 70%+ of time when u check turn to him and he will check river.... so in my eyes he ether had AIR when he check turn (90%+++ of time and u cant get any more $$ out of him with bet) or he hand Ax and he is slow playing, thats less than 10% of time

so imo check river for bluf induce

Originally posted by TheRebuz
HE CAN BLUF WITH ANY 2 CARDS

assuming he just suddenly wakes up on the river and has any2 he can bluff with is a pretty big flaw in your game

--- pockets ( that will be value bet in his eyes), JK, JT etc.... but i dont think that he will call on river with weaker hand than JJ ( if he is VERY VERY BIG DONK ofcourse, than he will call u with any pockets even with K hi there)

but with that board i dont see a call on river with smaler pockets than JJ, imo he give up that hand when he checks turn, if he had some hand ( pockets or qx) that he will want to call river bet he will bet turn 70%+ of time when u check turn to him and he will check river.... so in my eyes he ether had AIR when he check turn (90%+++ of time and u cant get any more $$ out of him with bet) or he hand Ax and he is slow playing, thats less than 10% of time

so imo check river for bluf induce

in my eyes its the other way around. I think if he checks the turn he most likely has some kind of showdown value and i also think that he would bluff his air on the turn. I dont really see any sense in checking the turn to bluff the river there.

You are also assuming that his value betting range is bigger than his calling range. I dont believe that. I think the leak of most ppl is that they are calling too much and not that they are value betting too light

Originally posted by Ardarandir
You are also assuming that his value betting range is bigger than his calling range. I dont believe that. I think the leak of most ppl is that they are calling too much and not that they are value betting too light

It depends on opponent. You didnt write about him -is he calling station or aggro donk or whatever? I agree in 100% with TheRebuz, checking the river is the best option here. Fish are scary on this board but if you check twice, he could think that he could win this pot.

Originally posted by Ardarandir

Originally posted by TheRebuz
HE CAN BLUF WITH ANY 2 CARDS

assuming he just suddenly wakes up on the river and has any2 he can bluff with is a pretty big flaw in your game

--- pockets ( that will be value bet in his eyes), JK, JT etc.... but i dont think that he will call on river with weaker hand than JJ ( if he is VERY VERY BIG DONK ofcourse, than he will call u with any pockets even with K hi there)

but with that board i dont see a call on river with smaler pockets than JJ, imo he give up that hand when he checks turn, if he had some hand ( pockets or qx) that he will want to call river bet he will bet turn 70%+ of time when u check turn to him and he will check river.... so in my eyes he ether had AIR when he check turn (90%+++ of time and u cant get any more $$ out of him with bet) or he hand Ax and he is slow playing, thats less than 10% of time

so imo check river for bluf induce

in my eyes its the other way around. I think if he checks the turn he most likely has some kind of showdown value and i also think that he would bluff his air on the turn. I dont really see any sense in checking the turn to bluff the river there.

You are also assuming that his value betting range is bigger than his calling range. I dont believe that. I think the leak of most ppl is that they are calling too much and not that they are value betting too light

#1 NO i dont say that he sudenly want to bluf river i say that he GIVE UP WHEN HE CHECK TURN or he had Ax there is that simple
#2 WHAT SHOWDOWN VALUE DO U HAVE with lets say KJ, or beter 88 (to get things simple) on AA4 flop and than Q hit on turn and is check to u??? U got 88 so what is ur line there check/turn - call/river lol i dont think so??? U got to bet there and try to take pot right away, couse there are a lot of biger card that can came on river na crush ur pocket, and u can also make people fold there weaker pockets even JJ if u bet with air there, that play is caled FLOATING.... call flop with any 2 and try to take pot with bet on turn if is it check to u....
In this hand imo u got beter chances that he will bet thinking that he got best hand or thinking that he can push u out of that hand on river then to value bet ur self, couse what will hapens when u bet ur JJ on river and guy raise u??? What would u do?? ur losing that bet and u got no show down, but if u check and he will bet on river ur calling and if he got u he got but no worse hand is caling on river execept the player is total donk

I dont really see any sense in checking the turn to bluff the river there.

he is not cheking turn to bluf u HE IS GIVING UP ON TURN (or he had AX there) and for sure he is not caling river there he is folding or raising u, BUT if u check river to him he might think that u give up too and try tu bluf u out of that pot or bet his weaker boats .

You are also assuming that his value betting range is bigger than his calling range. I dont believe that.

NO, I'm telling u that BLUFFING range is way bigger then calling range
u can reverse it.... ur at vilain spot and guy bets at u on AA4QA board, after he bets flop and check turn.... DO U THINK HE IS BLUFFING U, he is betting with air??? CAN UR 88 BE BEST HAND THERE????

AND BTW if ur checking turn on that kind of boards with pockets and caling river bets couse "u got showdown value" ether u play too many cash games or that is a PRETY MUCH BIG LEAK IN UR GAME

I didn't mean to offend you, I am sorry if I did.

to your #1 I don't get what you are trying to tell me ( i am no native english speaker as you might have already noticed)

to your #2 I would definetly check 88 there on the turn if I were villain and I wouldn't call a river vs. most villains, but i am surely not betting it either. In my opinion this would just be a wa/wb spot on the turn for 88
As to the point of Villain raising me. I am not scared of a raise on the river. I would be confident that my hand is 2nd best and so I would just go ahead and fold my JJ.
Also you are saying that he is checking the turn to give up. I think that is a pretty unlikely scenario. What would he have called the flop for if he just gives up the turn?

You are also assuming that his value betting range is bigger than his calling range. I dont believe that.

NO, I'm telling u that BLUFFING range is way bigger then calling range
u can reverse it.... ur at vilain spot and guy bets at u on AA4QA board, after he bets flop and check turn.... DO U THINK HE IS BLUFFING U, he is betting with air??? CAN UR 88 BE BEST HAND THERE????

AND BTW if ur checking turn on that kind of boards with pockets and caling river bets couse "u got showdown value" ether u play too many cash games or that is a PRETY MUCH BIG LEAK IN UR GAME

You said early in the thread that you would value bet pockets in his eyes, but would never call them so his value betting range is bigger than his calling range. whether or not a call is good here with showdown value doesnt depend on it being a tourney or a cashgame. The same principles apply.
As to whether or not villain should be calling with something like 88 here really depends. On the level he thinks Hero is thinking. The higher you go the more I would incline to mix in calls with 88 here. Because of the reasoning you are getting at in your post this actually can be a very good bluffing spot ( not in $10 tourneys obviously).

Besides all this I don't think that the standard villain in this kind of tournaments is capable of folding his 88 vs. a ~2,5k river bet.

u dont offend me

i gues u dont understand me what i want to say( i am no native english speaker you sure noticed that too)

here we go again

preflop:
hero raise CO call

flop
board came AA4 rainbow
hero bets CO calls

turn
Qd came hero check
now is CO turn
Q: what hand he will check here??(pockets, air or Ax)
so lets see
if he got pocket 22-tt,qq,kk why would he check here with intencion to call river??? i think he will never check 88-tt here, i dont think that hi will check 77 too couse there are a lot of over cards that might came and hurt his hand if he got the best hand right now.... so 22-33 i dont think he will call on flop and i dont think that he will check turn and calling river bet..... 44 he floped boat he might slow play it.... 55-77 q on turn is good card to bet when is chek to u couse if u got called u got free show down on river (no 1 will bet into u on that board with weak hands).... 88-tt u sure got to bet there same reason....(this play is called beting turn for free showdown) kk or Qx u might check couse u got Showdown value and u like vilain to bet into u with worse hands on river, Ax is easy u can slow play it or u can bet on turn...

SO WHAT IS CO RANGE 44-tt,qq,kk, Ax, Qx or air (kj,jt etc)

so imo when he got pockets and he check turn he is not calling river with worse hand than JJ, maybe TT but i dont think so couse if u had TT and board is AA4Q u call flop Cbet and is check to u on turn u got to bet there (vs unknown),

so in my eyes CO got pocket that he is going to fold if he dont hit his 2 outs on river,
he got KK, QQ, 44, Qx, Ax, and he is cheking for bluf induce, pot control and cheap showdown, he is in position
he got air and he give up of that hand and he is not calling any bets...

AND FINALY RIVER
A came
board is AA4QA

Q: U r CO, and vilain bets into u on river..... after he raise preflop, bets flop, checks turn, SO WHAT DO U THINK WHAT VILAIN HAVE THERE??? IS HE BLUFFING U??? ARE UR 55-TT BEST HAND??? I DONT THINK SO SO WHAT SHOULD U DO -> FOLD COUSE THAT RIVER BET IS CLEAR VALUE BET...

now lets see difrend scenario
Q: U r CO, and vilain checks on river..... after he raise preflop, bets flop, checks turn, SO WHAT DO U THINK WHAT VILAIN HAVE THERE??? he might have small pocket and he is truying to have free show down he might have air kj or something and he is giving up of that hand and he might have a monster AX or something and he is cheking for bluf induce.... so waht would u do with ur pocket or with ur air u migth check as wee and see what hapens or u might bet river and try to take pot down making beter hands to fold lets say u had 77- or kj u can make 88-jj fold on that river....

that was mine point

when u bet JJ on river with that action before river (raise-call preflop, bet-call flop, check-check turn, bet-? river) on A4AQA board I cant see that worse hand than AAAJJ is calling (but i can see a lot of worse hand beting river if is it check to them)
this is called pozitiv freroll (negativ freroll is when no worse hand is betting on river but will often call if u bet i dont think that this is the case here) imo this is clear value bet on river and no reasonable opponent will check turn and call river with worse hand than JJ

and 1 more thing MTT game and cash NL are way difrent,
in NL chips have same value all the time, in MTT chips lost have more value than chips gain at some points,
in NL cash u can make big mistakes reload and in 1-2 big hands later all mistakes are erased u r big winer in MTT cople of mistakes ur busted,
in cash NL u can play only lets say 20 starting hands and be a winer never cold bluf just beting ur good hands, in MTT u cant do that u got to pick ur spots and take the best of it sometimes ull got to shove with K2 off in NL cash u never got to do that, blinds and antes are not kiling u in NL,
in MTT u need big stack to bully players around and push him out of their hands, in NL u cant do that - very big stack in NL is some kind of handicap couse people are loking forward to doble up of ur stack etc........

Having re-read this post, I tend to agree with Rebuz's detailed assessment and figure check call river is better option

Originally posted by TheRebuz
u dont offend me

i gues u dont understand me what i want to say( i am no native english speaker you sure noticed that too)

here we go again

preflop:
hero raise CO call

flop
board came AA4 rainbow
hero bets CO calls

turn
Qd came hero check
now is CO turn
Q: what hand he will check here??(pockets, air or Ax)
so lets see
if he got pocket 22-tt,qq,kk why would he check here with intencion to call river??? i think he will never check 88-tt here, i dont think that hi will check 77 too couse there are a lot of over cards that might came and hurt his hand if he got the best hand right now.... so 22-33 i dont think he will call on flop and i dont think that he will check turn and calling river bet..... 44 he floped boat he might slow play it.... 55-77 q on turn is good card to bet when is chek to u couse if u got called u got free show down on river (no 1 will bet into u on that board with weak hands).... 88-tt u sure got to bet there same reason....(this play is called beting turn for free showdown) kk or Qx u might check couse u got Showdown value and u like vilain to bet into u with worse hands on river, Ax is easy u can slow play it or u can bet on turn...

SO WHAT IS CO RANGE 44-tt,qq,kk, Ax, Qx or air (kj,jt etc)

so imo when he got pockets and he check turn he is not calling river with worse hand than JJ, maybe TT but i dont think so couse if u had TT and board is AA4Q u call flop Cbet and is check to u on turn u got to bet there (vs unknown),

so in my eyes CO got pocket that he is going to fold if he dont hit his 2 outs on river,
he got KK, QQ, 44, Qx, Ax, and he is cheking for bluf induce, pot control and cheap showdown, he is in position
he got air and he give up of that hand and he is not calling any bets...

The problem about betting the turn with TT or hands alike is that you turn your hand into a bluff, because you will only get called by better hands. So betting a KJo on the turn actually has more value than betting TT on this turn. The standard Villain in 10$ tournaments won't know this obviously. I am just pointing this out because i think you think its a absolut must bet spot with TT on the turn if we were villain.
But I think that the standard Villain won't bet here on the turn with TT, because he thinks that his hand is weak ( which it actually kind of is). Also I disagree with the rest of your range. I think that hands like Qx,KJ,JT are highly unlikely in his range. He would have to call the flop with K / Q / J high. In my opinion that only makes sense if villain is planning on floating us.

My range on the turn for him would be 44-KK ( with QQ/KK also being unlikely given the preflop action), A2 ( accounting for randon Ax combos he just couldnt let go preflop), AT,AJ

AND FINALY RIVER
A came
board is AA4QA

Q: U r CO, and vilain bets into u on river..... after he raise preflop, bets flop, checks turn, SO WHAT DO U THINK WHAT VILAIN HAVE THERE??? IS HE BLUFFING U??? ARE UR 55-TT BEST HAND??? I DONT THINK SO SO WHAT SHOULD U DO -> FOLD COUSE THAT RIVER BET IS CLEAR VALUE BET...

Of course it is. But that I know is not important. Hero is playing vs. a random 10$ tournament Villain here. Assuming he will Hand reading as good as me or you is just a wrong assumption. Villains just dont read Hands that well. They see weakness on the turn and if you bet small enough on the river that will just not fold their pair, because for some reason they believe that to small bets they have to call, even though calling would be just not a valid option if they would think it through.

now lets see difrend scenario
Q: U r CO, and vilain checks on river..... after he raise preflop, bets flop, checks turn, SO WHAT DO U THINK WHAT VILAIN HAVE THERE??? he might have small pocket and he is truying to have free show down he might have air kj or something and he is giving up of that hand and he might have a monster AX or something and he is cheking for bluf induce.... so waht would u do with ur pocket or with ur air u migth check as wee and see what hapens or u might bet river and try to take pot down making beter hands to fold lets say u had 77- or kj u can make 88-jj fold on that river....

First of all, i would never wake up in that spot with anything but small pockets in a 10$ tournament. My floats and strong hands i bet on the turn.
Lets say i wake up with 77 as you suggested. I don't see a point in betting. Lets assume he has a range of:
AT-AK,QQ,KK,KQ,QJ,77-JJ ( this is of course arguable, as you can easily add some QT or random small Ax hands) --- the hands that we beat are not needed in this range because there are no hands in heros range that could call a bet on the river that are worse than 77. This is a range of 10,41%. According to you hero will fold 77-JJ ( i dont totally agree on that, i think a lot of villains wont let go of there JJ here, some might also call TT -- but for the sake of the argument lets just say i agree ).
So i as Villain bet and Hero folds 77-JJ which is only 2% of Heros range, so he is still calling with the rest ( 8,41%). So if Villain bets Hero will fold only 19,2% of that hands that beat us. So i as Villain need to give myself roughly 1:4 odds on my bet, which mean i can bet a maximum of 1180.8. I dont believe this betsize will make 88-JJ fold, given the amount of chips already in the pot.

Anyhow Villain is not me. He won't realize any of this ( most of them wont at least). Most of them will just check here for one Reason:
They have a weak hand on the river and they can check it back. So to avoid to have it checked back here I would make a small bet here vs. villains range, which i think is this:

KdQd ( according for the floats that caught something), 44-KK ( with QQ and KK being unlikely again), A2 ( for slow plays in his range)

that was mine point

when u bet JJ on river with that action before river (raise-call preflop, bet-call flop, check-check turn, bet-? river) on A4AQA board I cant see that worse hand than AAAJJ is calling (but i can see a lot of worse hand beting river if is it check to them)
this is called pozitiv freroll (negativ freroll is when no worse hand is betting on river but will often call if u bet i dont think that this is the case here) imo this is clear value bet on river and no reasonable opponent will check turn and call river with worse hand than JJ

and 1 more thing MTT game and cash NL are way difrent,
in NL chips have same value all the time, in MTT chips lost have more value than chips gain at some points,
in NL cash u can make big mistakes reload and in 1-2 big hands later all mistakes are erased u r big winer in MTT cople of mistakes ur busted,
in cash NL u can play only lets say 20 starting hands and be a winer never cold bluf just beting ur good hands, in MTT u cant do that u got to pick ur spots and take the best of it sometimes ull got to shove with K2 off in NL cash u never got to do that, blinds and antes are not kiling u in NL,
in MTT u need big stack to bully players around and push him out of their hands, in NL u cant do that - very big stack in NL is some kind of handicap couse people are loking forward to doble up of ur stack etc........

Again we can't assume he is as good or better as we. If we do we should not play these tourneys.
As to your points about cashgame and tournaments. I didn't say they are equal. I only said that the same principles apply. As for reshoving and push or fold phases. Those are obviously not played like that in cashgame but none of these apply for this hand.

The problem about betting the turn with TT or hands alike is that you turn your hand into a bluff, because you will only get called by better hands. So betting a KJo on the turn actually has more value than betting TT on this turn.

yea thats the point, Blufing to push better hands out, is hard to call there with JJ-TT OOP couse u actuly dont know were u r in hand and u might facing another bet on river which is even harder to call with JJ, if we bet turn and got called we r cheking river couse almoust never some1 will bet at u on river when u bet turn on that kind of board, u pay same $$ if ur going to call good river, + u have chance to win that hand on turn even vs beter hands than urs

i agree that they r not reading the hands good but when he checks turn his range is polarized he have monster or air and he is not calling river imo he is raising on folding. on that river I agree that worse pockets maybe will call small river bet like 1/2 -3/5 pot but that bet i dont thing so that u'll get caled with worse hand than JJ,

BTW i dont like that line nether I'll play it bet flop, bet turn (fold if got raised), check river (on this river i bet/ fold river or check call river )

As to your points about cashgame and tournaments. I didn't say they are equal. I only said that the same principles apply.

i dont agre on this 1.. we see things difrently

Originally posted by TheRebuz
i dont agre on this 1.. we see things difrently

we definetly do

bet the flop for value is a good option.
youll get a call from all lower pairs.
if he raises you... i`d fold oop. although it sucks
if you check you have to call if he bets.
c/f the turn is fine.
bet the river to get value from lower pairs.