Misconceptions about 3bet/4bet pots

Hi guys, the very active member FrozenElf has posted a topic on Hand Discussions about some post flops spots he played against the same regular. I think they ilustrate well some misconceptions that some of you might have.

So let's tackle these spots one at a time.

First, FrozenElf says:

Originally posted by FrozenElf
Hello, I have 3 interesting hands here I would like to discuss with somebody that has a good knowledge in these area's.

Firstly here is the players stats

37/28 vpip/pfr
32 agg%
9.4 3bet
11.3 3bet stat vs me

witch has gone from 7%-11.3 in the last few sessions we have played, Don't be fooled by his stats we have played heads up together a little bit witch throws the vpip and pfr out, He is by far the best player i have encountered at this limit and he crush's it, he has won somthign like $111 over 3k hands 30bb/100 this isn't down to luck either, I seemed to have found 1 of his weak area's and its deceptive 3bets, now what i intend to do is use this against him, he hasn't noticed i have changed my gameplan vs him, because i know what he is doing to me, i am only raising hands i can play back at him, we played about 15 3bet pots and only 1 4bet pot in this session. i was crushing him in most of them apart from these 3 hands, now i think i know my mistakes and would like somebody just to comfirm them, or put me right

This introductory wall of text already has something in it I'd like to adress.

1- Don't overestimate or underestimate your opponents skills. Having 3k hands of villain winning a lot does not prove in the least that he is a good player, or even a winning player. An addition problem is that microstakes players have a lot of trouble recognizing good and bad plays because they are not too sure how those look like
I know this is something a bit hard to hear, but it is the reality of things and it's something you should be more aware. Take your own views of your opponents plays with a grain of salt. Or at least use those doubts ("was his play a good play?" "was this fishy of him?") to improve your own game by trying to figure out what's the correct play in villain's shoes.
The same goes for the "adjustments" you could be making against some reg.

Originally posted by FrozenElf

Poker Stars $10.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 2805255
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

CO: $39.89 - VPIP: 22, PFR: 17, 3B: 9, AF: 3.5, Hands: 114
Hero (BTN): $29.13 - VPIP: 24, PFR: 17, 3B: 7, AF: 2.5, Hands: 115042
SB: $60.50 - VPIP: 35, PFR: 27, 3B: 9, AF: 2.1, Hands: 3855
BB: $41.55 - VPIP: 28, PFR: 17, 3B: 5, AF: 2.3, Hands: 533
UTG: $26.51 - VPIP: 29, PFR: 19, 3B: 7, AF: 1.6, Hands: 3443
MP: $12.46 - VPIP: 22, PFR: 15, 3B: 3, AF: 1.0, Hands: 287

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is BTN with Q K
3 folds, Hero raises to $0.30, SB raises to $1, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.70

Flop: ($2.10) A 6 Q (2 players)
SB bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50

Turn: ($5.10) 6 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

River: ($5.10) 4 (2 players)
SB checks, Hero checks

Final Pot: $5.10
Hero mucks Q K
SB shows A 3
SB wins $4.99
(Rake: $0.11)

Giving the positions i am BTN and he is SB, his range is going to be wider deceptively because he knows im wider from BTN witch generates more folding equity in his eyes, (he doesn't know im now only opening past him with hands i can play back at him) so i call with a hand that is probably ahead of his range, with position and the 300bb effective deep stack i call, so now my question here is abiut the flop, his range is full of draws mostly here, and the big hands obviously, its a good flop for him to bet, since he thinks my range is pocket pairs, he probably thinks i 4bet AK KK AA QQ, so he has either some monsters or flushdraws and weak Ax hands, he is a good player and wont get attached to a weak ace, with that said, my KQ is likely to be the best hand at the moment since there is many blockers to AK AA and KK on the flop and in my hands, that said, shouldn't my plan be reraise/fold on this flop since all his weak Ax will fold and flush draws will call witch i charge them for instead of giving him free cards, i even believe this player could fold AQ here, i don't expect him to bluff his missed draw since he knows im checking back the turn to bluff catch missed draws anyway, so if he does call with a flush its most likely going to go check check, after the flop,

So, FrozenElf is considering raising flop with our hand. Bad idea. Several reasons. I guess the most simple thing to consider is this: we are ahead of bluffs and we shouldn't be expecting to be making him fold hands better than ours. I don't think we can realistically expect to make villain fold top pairs here, specially when he probably checks a lot of the weaker ones. Other important point to make: we can't (or shouldn't) really raise a lot of hands in this flop, most of our continuing range is calling.
The hand was well played.

Originally posted by FrozenElf

Poker Stars $10.00 No Limit Hold'em - 6 players - View hand 2805260
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

UTG: $42.24 - VPIP: 22, PFR: 17, 3B: 9, AF: 3.5, Hands: 114
Hero (MP): $26.86 - VPIP: 24, PFR: 17, 3B: 7, AF: 2.5, Hands: 115042
CO: $62.68 - VPIP: 35, PFR: 27, 3B: 9, AF: 2.1, Hands: 3855
BTN: $41.11 - VPIP: 28, PFR: 17, 3B: 5, AF: 2.3, Hands: 533
SB: $26.37 - VPIP: 29, PFR: 19, 3B: 7, AF: 1.6, Hands: 3443
BB: $10.22 - VPIP: 22, PFR: 15, 3B: 3, AF: 1.0, Hands: 287

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is MP with A K
1 fold, Hero raises to $0.30, CO raises to $0.90, 3 folds, Hero raises to $2.30, CO calls $1.40

Flop: ($4.75) T Q 2 (2 players)
Hero bets $3.09, CO calls $3.09

Turn: ($10.93) 7 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

River: ($10.93) 9 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $7.50, Hero folds

Final Pot: $10.93
CO wins $10.55
(Rake: $0.38)

Im guessing this 1 is pretty simple but nonetheless, I 4bet him about 6 times and this is the only time he called, im assuming his range is going to be very strong like 99+ AK, so when i missed to flop with AK i shouldn't invest any more money with cbet bluffs right?

This is a board that really hits a 4bet call range, which should contain mainly a lot of high (mostly suited) cards. We are also very deep which means we should be probably calling the 3bet with AKo and not 4betting. Anyways, villain's range actually has combos of QQ/KK, apart from some AQ. So this hand looks to me like a clear check/fold, specially without a back door FD.

Originally posted by FrozenElf
Pker Stars $10.00 No Limit Hold'em - 5 players - View hand 2805267
DeucesCracked Poker Videos Hand History Converter

Hero (UTG): $25.26 - VPIP: 24, PFR: 17, 3B: 7, AF: 2.5, Hands: 115042
CO: $58.94 - VPIP: 35, PFR: 27, 3B: 9, AF: 2.1, Hands: 3855
BTN: $46.20 - VPIP: 28, PFR: 17, 3B: 5, AF: 2.3, Hands: 533
SB: $25.13 - VPIP: 29, PFR: 19, 3B: 7, AF: 1.6, Hands: 3443
BB: $10.22 - VPIP: 22, PFR: 15, 3B: 3, AF: 1.0, Hands: 287

Pre Flop: ($0.15) Hero is UTG with 7 7
Hero raises to $0.30, CO raises to $0.90, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.95) T 3 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50

Turn: ($4.95) 5 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO checks

River: ($4.95) 3 (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $3.90, Hero calls $3.90

Final Pot: $12.75
Hero mucks 7 7
CO shows 3 4
CO wins $12.27
(Rake: $0.48)

This hand is similar to the first one in the way i think i should of played it, now i call and hold MP on this dry flop of T35r i check he cbets, this miss's a lot of my range that i would call him with and another good flop for him to cbet, however it miss's a lot of his range too, since he has a huge deceptive 3bet range of a lot of hands like 78s 79s j8s etc, so when i call the flop here my hand is vulnerable, and it gives him chance to catch up, so shouldn't i be check raise/folding this flop vs him, again im pretty sure he could fold a weak Tx hand maybe even AT since JJ and TT are in my calling range

In this last hand I understand a lot more the "urge" to put in a raise, our hand does want, to some degree, to make villain fold some hands that have a bunch of equity against ours. Problem is, our hand simply does not have enough equity to make this type of play, we are kind turning our hand into a bluff since we will be doing fairly badly against villain continuing range. We kind have to check/call and potentially face ugly decisions later. I'd rather use different combos to raise here, like KJs/QJs/Axs with backdoor FD, I think those hands are not strong enough to call flop and they are okay choices for some bluff raises, without overdoing it.

Regarding FrozenElf opinion that villain might fold hands like top pair, I feel that is way too optimistic.

All these hands are very deepstacked, and my competence at deep stack play is a lot worse than it is at ~100bbs stack play. Anyways, I still think you'll find this useful.