Man, I feel comfortable in my game. It is a second time you make such suggestions. ..
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Originally posted by FrozenElf
Originally posted by nitrol
First, the range you hive him is too wide.
Second, we do not accomplish much with a cbet on flop.
Third, no need to turn our hand into a bluff.
Fourth, we feel awkward on many turn cards.So, I myself, like the passive way. Not saying it is correct.
Maybe, you feel uncomfortable, playing OP with medium strength hands, this hand is stronger then it looks though, it is 2nd pair, but it also puts 2nd pair to 3rd pair, that opponents sometimes forget.
And I don't believe the range I applied is inaccurate, what would you suggest?
I think it might be rather more like this: TT-22,AQs-A9s,A5s,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,AQo,KQo,QJo
He doesn't have so many 5x hands.
On the flop you want to bet for value and expect to get calls from hands like 22-77, A5 and Jx wich means you expect him to fold big portion of his range. This contradicts with his low FTcbet stat.
With 88, any turn card besides 8 and J are making our life miserable. So, basically if we continue betting it will be for pure bluff.
Betting for value on the flop and turning our hand into bluff ott? I don't think it is that good.
In our range we have many hands to bet otf with. For value: JJ+, AJ, QJs+, 55, maybe TT. For bluff: overcards with backdoor, AK, QTs (hands that have some potential to make good hand on the later streets and have some blockers of the hands that would call us.
Originally posted by VaskataBuci
Originally posted by FrozenElf
Originally posted by nitrol
First, the range you hive him is too wide.
Second, we do not accomplish much with a cbet on flop.
Third, no need to turn our hand into a bluff.
Fourth, we feel awkward on many turn cards.So, I myself, like the passive way. Not saying it is correct.
Maybe, you feel uncomfortable, playing OP with medium strength hands, this hand is stronger then it looks though, it is 2nd pair, but it also puts 2nd pair to 3rd pair, that opponents sometimes forget.
And I don't believe the range I applied is inaccurate, what would you suggest?
I think it might be rather more like this: TT-22,AQs-A9s,A5s,KTs+,QTs+,J9s+,T9s,98s,AQo,KQo,QJo
He doesn't have so many 5x hands.
On the flop you want to bet for value and expect to get calls from hands like 22-77, A5 and Jx wich means you expect him to fold big portion of his range. This contradicts with his low FTcbet stat.
With 88, any turn card besides 8 and J are making our life miserable. So, basically if we continue betting it will be for pure bluff.Betting for value on the flop and turning our hand into bluff ott? I don't think it is that good.
In our range we have many hands to bet otf with. For value: JJ+, AJ, QJs+, 55, maybe TT. For bluff: overcards with backdoor, AK, QTs (hands that have some potential to make good hand on the later streets and have some blockers of the hands that would call us.
You have just pointed out a leak, that I have in the way hand read, when you said, about there isn't many 5x hands in villains range, I still include, all 56 75 hands, when im hand reading even if its not in the tags range for example.
Furthermore If we continue with our range which preflop might be something like this:
55+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,98s,AJo+,KJo+ - 153 combos
OTF we cbet: TT+,55,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs,T9s,AKo,AJo,KJo - 104 combos (maybe a little bit less, because we do not cbet all suited combos)
which gives us cbet 65 % which I think is fine.
I'm not quite sure whether to cbet or not. I think we shouldn't turn this to a bluff but on the other hand checking flop and turn looks very weak. If I call pre, villain checks flop and checks turn, I'm betting it 100% of the time. What if we do something fancy and check raise him OTT 0.o
Villain can stab at tge pot on the turn without made hand, so we can call.
If the hand is checked, we can stab.
Originally posted by la55i
I'm not quite sure whether to cbet or not. I think we shouldn't turn this to a bluff but on the other hand checking flop and turn looks very weak. If I call pre, villain checks flop and checks turn, I'm betting it 100% of the time. What if we do something fancy and check raise him OTT 0.o
After this discussion, The flop texture is really dry, i think check/calling the flop is fine, i think you should of lead out on the turn though, there are a lot of PPs in villains range that fold and we can collect the dead money, i think, after checking the flop, checking the turn on this A high, we are going to get bluffed off a hand we are probably in front most of the time.
If we get called on the turn, can we bluff catch the river?
Originally posted by nitrol
Man, I feel comfortable in my game. It is a second time you make such suggestions. ..
I am sorry if you think i insulted you, but i wasn't, i was just making you question, youself, it was something you said that didn't make, sense, but i missunderstood what you said, this is why im trying to write, and keep my literature the best i can to avoid arguments and confusion.
Please, if you think what i said is hurtfull, i don't mean it like that, i just don't realise what im saying is insulting. i just like to learn and descuss topics in full detail from different angles.
No problem, man. Just made a note that you try to teach me. 
I accept advice with my heart and mind open.
No problem.
Originally posted by FrozenElf
Originally posted by la55i
I'm not quite sure whether to cbet or not. I think we shouldn't turn this to a bluff but on the other hand checking flop and turn looks very weak. If I call pre, villain checks flop and checks turn, I'm betting it 100% of the time. What if we do something fancy and check raise him OTT 0.oAfter this discussion, The flop texture is really dry, i think check/calling the flop is fine, i think you should of lead out on the turn though, there are a lot of PPs in villains range that fold and we can collect the dead money, i think, after checking the flop, checking the turn on this A high, we are going to get bluffed off a hand we are probably in front most of the time.
If we get called on the turn, can we bluff catch the river?
With leading the turn we turn our hand into a bluff again. No need to be that aggressive, imo.
If we get called we are done.
Originally posted by FrozenElf
After this discussion, The flop texture is really dry, i think check/calling the flop is fine, i think you should of lead out on the turn though, there are a lot of PPs in villains range that fold and we can collect the dead money, i think, after checking the flop, checking the turn on this A high, we are going to get bluffed off a hand we are probably in front most of the time.If we get called on the turn, can we bluff catch the river?
If we check flop and lead the turn it will turn our hand to a bluff. If we get called I don't think we can bluff catch since most of villains hands are Ax or Jx on the river. It wouldn't be catching a bluff, it would be calling to see better hand.
Originally posted by la55i
Originally posted by FrozenElf
After this discussion, The flop texture is really dry, i think check/calling the flop is fine, i think you should of lead out on the turn though, there are a lot of PPs in villains range that fold and we can collect the dead money, i think, after checking the flop, checking the turn on this A high, we are going to get bluffed off a hand we are probably in front most of the time.If we get called on the turn, can we bluff catch the river?
If we check flop and lead the turn it will turn our hand to a bluff. If we get called I don't think we can bluff catch since most of villains hands are Ax or Jx on the river. It wouldn't be catching a bluff, it would be calling to see better hand.
Yes, that makes sense, vs that range, there isn't any bluffs to catch on the river, well spotted :f_drink:.
The bet on the turn isn't a bluff, its to collect dead money. Are you's familiar with that bet?
Sometimes we win the pot sometimes we get called, witch leads to the question, Do we have enough folding equity to make this collecting dead money bet? if not checking is obviously the best option.
please correct me if im wrong about the dead money bet, i think i might go read up on it again.
I think i just remember what it is, its when sometimes your in front, and sometimes your behind, it could be a bluff or value, but its called collecting dead money, is that right?
Way ahead/way behind situation.
In this situations you do not pump the pot, but play it slowly and carefully.
The bet on the turn isn't a bluff, its to collect dead money. Are you's familiar with that bet?
Sometimes we win the pot sometimes we get called, witch leads to the question, Do we have enough folding equity to make this collecting dead money bet? if not checking is obviously the best option.
please correct me if im wrong about the dead money bet, i think i might go read up on it again.
Stabbing turn is a clear mistake.
Small pp are expected to checkdown, no need to bet to make them fold we are already beat them + we donate too much to Ax + villain can float with some gs and the problem with that is we won't see a showdown against them.
As a general concept,
a) we always want to play the highest EV move, just because a move is +ev doesn't mean that move is the best play.
In this case we have to compare EV(Bet) with Ev(checkdown).
I think the checking down is the best here ( even tho I can't proof it ).