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Becoming the rake machine - 3 months of Spin&Go 8h/day

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bob368
Joined: 29.05.2019

Hello,
In this blog I will record my progress in a 3months spin&go challenge on Winamax.
I’m in my mid-20s, live in France and currently taking a break from a high stress position for 3 months. I was a recreational player (read: fish) a few years back, particularly in DON.

Analysis of spin&go, structure on Winamax

SGs seem to be the “new” shit. Very high variance, quick games, little postflop play and probably the largest pool of player.
Structure is weird but can be reduced 95% to a
xBI .07x rake 3handed sng, winner take all, PP 2.75x

Spoiler

multiplier Odds 1st 2nd 3rd % potential
10000----00.0004%-----80%-------12%-------8%--01.4%
1000------00.0016%-----80%-------12%-------8%--00.6%
100--------00.0080%-----80%-------12%-------8%--00.3%
50---------00.0250%-----80%-------12%-------8%--00.4%
20---------00.1000%-----100%------------------------00.7%
10---------00.7000%-----100%------------------------02.5%
6-----------07.0000%-----100%------------------------15.1%
4-----------18.0000%-----100%------------------------25.8%
2-----------74.0000%-----100%------------------------53.2%

95% of earnings come from the x2, x4 and x6. (When everything is accounted for we get the standard 2.79)

This stuff is fun to look at but it’s quite irrelevant once over the 5-10€ buy-in range.
At that point rakeback becomes significant (about 30% in my specific case on winamax). Over 15€ it’s nearly 50/50 and RB dominates over 25€. (based on the winamax VIP structure, considering that winrate decreases as BI increase, …).


My project

My situation is as follow : I quit my previous job a few weeks ago and have an opportunity lined up for September. That means unemployment benefits for this period which reduce my opportunity cost. Hence why I can dedicate ~200h/month over the next 3 months, even if it means doing it for 1.5€/h the first month.

If successful (good enough ROI at high enough BI to generate 2k€ or more/month), I might move to a low cost of living city and continue for some time.

Gear and setup

Spoiler

Hardware:
• Desktop with a 27” 1440p main screen, 24” 1080p secondary
• Laptop on the side
Software:
• Winamax
• HM2 to get bulk data
• ICMizer 2 pro (mainly for review sessions and training P/F ranges)
• Excel monitoring sheet (might have gone overboard on that one, looks more like the base for a 1mm business plan than a 300€ project..)
• This blog

BR strategy
SGs have wild variance. If I do get a 3% ROI (No way to get my actual ROI before a few thousand games and it’s not like it’s fixed anyway) that’s still gives hundreds of BI in down swings.
I’ll be starting at 1€ BI (winamax doesn’t have .25 or .5) for most of the first month.
I’ve decided to go with a 300 BI bankroll that I’ll unlock as needed in 100€ blocks.
If I beat 1€ consistently (1k games+), I’ll start moving to the next limit at 100BI.

Spoiler

For instance:
• BR > 200€ -> switch to 50/50 1€/2€ BI for a week or two then only 2€
• BR > 500€ -> switch to 50/50 2€/5€ BI then to 5€ only

If I go under 100 BI of the previous buy-in, I’ll switch back to that. I might be more conservative than that in practice, that’s a hard limit.

Challenges
The biggest risk is tilt during the early phases. Playing for cents, at half the hourly rate of my internships a few years back, will be hard. Yet there is a learning/practice phase that needs to be done and I might as well do it at lower BI.
That blog, to some extent, is part of my tilt management strategy. Some other steps: daily workout, session by session tilt “score”, daily writ-up on my mindset, …

I will update this part over time.

Daily schedule
• Breakfast: Session review, write-up (incl. post hands in the discussion forum) from previous day, around 1h
• Poker study (and/or ICMizer 120 daily hands/other training), 1h
• 1st morning session, 2h
• Break, quick review
• 2nd morning session, 2h
• Break, quick review. (between 10 a.m. and noon at this point) // lunch
• 3rd morning/1st afternoon session, 2h
• Break, quick review
• 1st/2nd afternoon session, 2h
• Break, quick review (between 2 a.m. and 4 a.m.)
• Workout, personal errands, …

Two days/week are "off" with only two 2h sessions. That's 48h/w of poker with 15ish hours of studying (hand review, theory, ...). That's still 20-30% more free time than my previous job, which is both nice and sad.

Monthly goals

1st month:

Spoiler

• Basic Push/fold ranges mastered at every ES
• Decent, tight pre-flop at higher ES (20+ BB)
• Confident 3 tables
• Validate the lifestyle, have tilt under control, etc.
Numerical targets:
• Game played >5k
• Winrate > 36% -> ROI before RB > 0 (actual target 3%)

2nd month:

Spoiler

• Prove LT ROI
• Getting to 4 tables
• Test the 5€ field if BR allows
Numerical targets:
• Game played >6k
• Winrate > 36% -> target ROI ~2.5%

3rd month:

Spoiler

• Prove LT ROI at 5-10€ BI
• Prove income viability
• Test the 10€field if BR allows
Numerical targets:
• Game played >8.5k
• Winrate >= 36.5% -> ROI before RB >= 2.5%

Overall numerical targets:
• Game played >20k (620h)
• Buy-in: ~87k (4.3€ avg)
• Winrate ~2.4%
• Winamax miles generated >50k (yearly status)

If I get through that, I might join spinlegend to further sharpen my skills and be in a mutually beneficial poker relationship or continue on higher BI (10€ BI at this volume and 2.3%ROI is equivalent to a 35k/y job).
There is a high likelihood of failure (tilt management) and that’s fine.
This blog will be updated daily with a review of the previous day, link to hands analysis on the SNG forum…
There will be weekly updates with more in-depth statistics.

Have fun.


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19 replies
bob368
Joined: 29.05.2019
bob368
Joined: 29.05.2019

[Reserved month2]


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bob368
Joined: 29.05.2019

[Reserved month3]


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ematpok
Joined: 19.06.2011

I'm in. GL mate!


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177272
Joined: 29.07.2013
AgapieGheorghe
Joined: 10.07.2011

Count me in. Subbed. Good luck with your challenge ! :f_thumbsup:

How early do you wake up ? From your daily schedule i get the ideea that is 5 am ?


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bob368
Joined: 29.05.2019

Between 5 and 6 at the moment, used to be around 4. I kindda want to move that to a more "normal" schedule, especially considering the peak hours seem to be are around 6pm-10pm.


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bob368
Joined: 29.05.2019

Day 1 – Review & Hand analysis

I already fucked up my sleep schedule… Which is not too bad because I definitely need to play the 6-10 pm window. I’ll edit the planning sometime in the future.

First day was bad, as expected. I almost stop midway because I was getting tilted so easily. After a break I was in a much better mindset and got a decent 2h session at the end. The sample size is still really small and thus not too relevant. Yet it’s clear I have many leaks to fixe.

Let’s start with some cold stats :

Spoiler

Sessions details

Here is the progression:

  • Session 1: let's get started, warm up, bad ROI but not that unexpected
  • Session 2: Getting used to the strategy, going better
  • Session 3-4: WTF is happening, the ship's on fire, hero is slamming is keyboard every 5min and throwing games. WHY THE F**K ARE YOU PLAYING 4 TABLES IF YOU'RE NOT CONFIDENT WINNING ON 2???
  • Session 5: Cooking rice
  • Session 6: The best session in terms of mindset, didn't tilt once, played tighter 3handed and close to perfect in HU with ES <20BB. Happens to be positive in ROI as well

And this is the daily summary:

Notes taken during the sessions

I wasn't sure how I wanted to approach note taking during the sessions. Took a lot of notes (in a doc not players notes) the first two sessions and almost none the last 4. I thought it might also help with tilt management, it doesn't. I don't feel it's that valuable overall (duplicate a lot of my excel monitoring in a less searchable format) so I'll limit it to hands I don't want to forget for the next day review.
I've copied the funniest part below (from my 5 pages 1100 words notes): (my own comment in bold)
Session 1:

Spoiler

Notes : Stressed to start the challenge. Coffee, water bottle ready for 2h non stop.
Start 9:45am
Luckbox mode on. I’d be throwing my keyboard against the wall if I was some of my opponents.

Luckbox continues:
HERO QQ vs AA all in PF, gets the Q… // into A9 vs A8 in the HU

Posture seems like a good indicator of focus. After 8h that's totally the case!

10:55 starting to play like shit In fact playing better than the first session apparently
//
Facing a maniac, waited took good push and lost, kindda raged internally but was able to know it’s ev+ LT.
Then lost AQs vs QT 3handed, kindda feels bad… Need to check during review but probably good spot anyway
When you get mad but not mad enough not to explain why you're mad.

//
Lost Q8o vs Q7o feels bad again.
Lost QQ vs JTs… (push preflop)
Starting to be annoyed, as long as I’m getting in good
Within a few hands

//
Got cold feet with a clear push A6s 18ES HU
I think that was a higher multiplier x6 or something, that's why I took the note. Don't want to play differently (which would be, by definition, worse) because we're on a higher multiplier.
//
Need to drink less water
I don't think I'll be able to play 4 tables with my current water intake.

Notes : Quick notes just after the session before looking at any result/stats. It felt quite good, started with a lot of 50/50 going my way which is always nice. I’ve written those hands while playing and unlucky hands (QQ vs QT all-in PF gets trips T for instance) and that helps a lot not to get into a tilt. At the end of the day anything will even out and what matters is getting into good spot. I feel I made few outrageous mistake, when I did I noticed and wrote them in this file. Where there is a lot more work to do is edgy spots and “deep” (20BB+) play.
Stats:
Balance 93€ (the last hour felt somewhat bad but not to this point)
Game played 43 (10.75 GPTH)
Finished (1st/2nd/3rd) : 13/20/10 (30.2%/46.5%/23.3%)

Session 2:

Spoiler

//
Starting to get really pissed off atm. (losing a couple coin flip + a couple 70/30 in a row)
//
How many coin flip can be lost in a row. I could do the math
Might be too agressiove 9 handed a mid stacks (15-20 ES) (ex A5o BTN)
//
12:50 Tilt at 10 first desk smash of the day My desk has a 1 inch thick oak slab, fist doesn't win against that
13:07 Tilt officially at 11

Part of the issue is playing 2 tables only: gives to much time to care about the outcome while what matters is getting in good spots. You're wrong dunbass

FUCKING GETTING MAD AT LOSING 70/30… even though you can of excpect to lose them 30% of the time.
//
I’d be surprised is this session WR is over 20%
//
Losing 60/40 – 70/30 in a row feels dreadful…
//
Call 4bet all in deep with A5s at 25ES (check ICM)
//
LOSING FUCKING KK vs A3o fuck this fucking shit.
2nd desk slapping
FUCKING AJs vs A2s …. Lost again 70/30
//
Almost missed I had the nut on the river…
//
FUCKING BITCH FULL OF LUCK
14:13 3rd desk slap
//
Notes : Quick notes just after the session before looking at any result/stats. Felt like shit, feel like I lost way more than the first session. I tilted a lot (don’t know if I was unlucky -> more upset -> more rage or if I was simply more ready to tilt and noticed upsets more). I really need to increase the number of songs on my playlist. Thinking about doing only 3 play session per day this week and dedicate the 2h left to more hand review/theory.

Hands review

Pre-flop:
1217 VPIP hands

Running the ICMIZER Analysis tool with FGS at 1
About half of the hands can be done quickly like that.
About 20 hands are negative ICM. Most of the worse are 3 handed with wide all-in call and wide shove. That’s something I noticed while playing yesterday and I got tighter 3 handed during the day. I’ll leave it at that for now, I think it’ll get fixed simply by getting hand strength instantly.

Now I want to look into the all the hand I fold to see if I was too tight at some points.
That 2.8k hands
Performed the same quick analysis. About 80 hands are negative according to ICMIZER most of them barely. Something that was big and came up several times is undervaluing KQo 3 handed, it’s a 10%er and should be a call in most situation (unless really deep obviously).

Post-flop:

I looked quickly through it. I can’t find any big losing trend myself. Maybe someone can advise on what stats to track?

Here's the first day wrap up. I woke up late, took way too much time to make this post and had to reviews hand a bit quickly. I need to find the right tool (stats, ...) to analyse my post flop game because I'm not looking at 2k hands one by one every day.
Today I'm going for another 8h of 2 tables €1, trying to be cleaner, acting on what I noticed in the pre flop review, maybe get close to break-even. If Stephen King writes book one word at a time, I have to progress one hand at a time.


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177272
Joined: 29.07.2013

Great write up, I feel your pain. Glglgl


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Team0zum
Joined: 06.04.2018

Hey man GL and have fun. 1€ and 2€ are just walkover. 5€ still 90% loosing players but at least the play back a bit. Check out my blog as I have some tips and videos in there too . Same applies to my site. Sent a friend request if u wanna discuss the games etc more.


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ghaleon
Joined: 17.10.2007

I would personally recommend bit smaller aims for working hours. Playing 8h of poker is lot more stressful than most normal work and it's very easy to make overly optimistic goals.


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bob368
Joined: 29.05.2019

Thank you all for your kind comments.

Originally posted by Team0zum
Hey man GL and have fun. 1€ and 2€ are just walkover. 5€ still 90% loosing players but at least the play back a bit. Check out my blog as I have some tips and videos in there too . Same applies to my site. Sent a friend request if u wanna discuss the games etc more.

Thanks, I'll check that out during my review/learning sessions!

Originally posted by ghaleon
I would personally recommend bit smaller aims for working hours. Playing 8h of poker is lot more stressful than most normal work and it's very easy to make overly optimistic goals.

Thank you for the advice, I see you left out the hardest part: what's the perfect duration ?
I assume one solution would be to start with less hour and more tables (6h-3tables // 4h - 4tables). Overall I need to do volume from the get go to find my leaks...
Should I spend more time per day learning/reviewing, any good ressources (the spin&go videos on poker strategy are 4 years old and there is only 5 of them)? Should I hire a coach right away ? That seems like a good idea because they would clean up the most obvious leaks/mistakes quickly.
I don't really expect a positive ROI this first week. You write about optimistic goal are you talking ROI or just hours? I found very little data on ROI of winning players, especially at lower BIs.


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Moderator
SDK1987
Joined: 12.11.2008

I would play maximum 1,5 hours straight and than 1 hour break or something. If you do that the whole day I would most likely play around 6 hours and that's already tough I think, but it depends per person how you deal with this.

Good luck with your Spin & Go adventure :gl:

Cheers,
SDK1987


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bob368
Joined: 29.05.2019

Originally posted by SDK1987
I would play maximum 1,5 hours straight and than 1 hour break or something. If you do that the whole day I would most likely play around 6 hours and that's already tough I think, but it depends per person how you deal with this.

Thanks for the insight. That sounds reasonable, I'll try over the next few days and see how it feels. It's true that pushing for 2h session made me look at my timer a lot during the second half.

By the way, since you're a moderator, do you know if I can link to specific post in a thread?


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TJtheTJ
Joined: 12.10.2011

gl with the challenge sir, will be following :f_drink:

imo how much time you spend and how long your sessions are depend a lot on your own situation, your mental game, your goals, etc. I don't think there's a one-size-fits-all solution here and you'll have to find out by trial and error what works best for you.

Originally posted by bob368do you know if I can link to specific post in a thread?

You can do this with the date the post was made. So you can either right-click the date and 'copy URL' or just click on the date and copy it from the URL bar. You can then use that to link to specific posts.

So if I wanted to link to your post in this thread that was reserved for month 1, I would use this link (without the space between h and t):

h ttps: https://forums.pokerstrategy.com/forum/thread.php?postid=3044236#post3044236


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bob368
Joined: 29.05.2019

Day 2 – Review & Hand analysis

I already fucked up my sleep schedule… Which is not too bad because I definitely need to play the 6-10 pm window. I’ll edit the planning sometime in the future.

First day was bad, as expected. I almost stop midway because I was getting tilted so easily. After a break I was in a much better mindset and got a decent 2h session at the end. The sample size is still really small and thus not too relevant. Yet it’s clear I have many leaks to fixe.

Let’s start with some cold stats :

Spoiler

Sessions details

Here is the progression:

  • Session 1: Pushing to 2h was a bit hard, I'll follow some advice from this thread and go toward 1.5h in the future
  • Session 2: Nothing special to note here, played 3 tables which feels fine
  • Session 3: Quick 1h session on 3 tables, felt much better than at 3h the previous day, the 6-10pm slot really feels better than playing during the day.
  • Session 4-6: Got really lucky on the higher multiplier tables, won a X20 which obviously pad the results. The last hour felt really forced, I didn't want to stop at 5h on an artificially inflated result but that probably wasn't worth it to play like crap. A bit disappointed in me for not maintaining consistency.

Daily summary:

Notes taken during the sessions
No notes taken during this session. This might be an overreaction to day 1, I'll start taking beginning/end of session quick notes to monitor my mindset better.

Hands review
Hand review will be empty today. I need to find how to do it properly so that it's beneficial. If you feel you have good insights feel free to answer on this post.

Pre-flop:

Still passed my hands through ICMizer, a few obvious spot (66+ ES 15BB that I folded, ...). The thing is, I cannot take anything from that beside learning my P/F ranges, which I'm already doing. Maybe tracking the ratio of missed P/F over hands might be useful to track progress?

Post-flop:
Generally deeper play is where I need help to narrow down the hands to review.

Overall a good session in terms of mindset (except the very last hour) and luck, not so much in WR. I'll take that for day 2, that's a good moral boost and there is time to iron out my mechanics and improve WR. Day 3 will be a 4h day as I have personal matters to attend.


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bob368
Joined: 29.05.2019

Day 3 – Review & Hand analysis

Sessions details

Here is the progression:

  • Session 1: Decided to go 3 tables today, too much waiting around at 2 tables now that I gained some automatism. Decent one hour session at noon.
  • Session 2-3: Decent WR that must have been skewed towards the 2x multiplier. Once more really low sample so nothing to worry about but I'll definitely keep an eye if my WR is consistently lower on higher multiplier.
  • Session 4: Switched from music to a Robin Williams stand up show for the last session. Went really smoothly I'm not yet sure if what I'm listening too has any effect on the quality of my play.

Daily summary:

Notes taken during the sessions

Not much really. It was a short session with absolutely zero tilt and decent luck -> good WR and ROI. I feel I've somewhat improved over only 20h of practice, that'll probably be disproved by an abysmal session anytime soon.
Here's the funniest bit from the Robin Williams show I watched during my last session of the day.

Hands review
I need to find how to do it properly so that it's beneficial. If you feel you have good insights feel free to answer on this post.

HU
Played 1 328 HU hands.

Pre-flop:
602 went through ICMIZER
18 where big fails
28 where negative but close to 0.

The other were at too deep ES for ICMIZER.
I’ve looked at quite a few and noticed to trend I’d like to adjust:
Pushing vs minbet at 20+ ES. See this post in hand discussion.

Post-flop:
I still play straightforward post flop (which doesn’t happen to much in HU with my current P/F strat starting at 20BB). CBet based on flop texture, barrel when I think I’m ahead. Most of the post flop I see is from opponent limping when I have a crap hands, which rarely leads to PF action.

3 handed
Definitely played tighter 3 handed which let me get to the bubble more often. Browsing through the 3 handed hands I still see a lot of dubious push calls with sub part hands. I’ve posted one specific example for analysis in the appropriate forum.
I’ll try to focus on that today.

Today will be 6h of poker in 4 session of roughly 1.5h on 3 tables. Testing this new format. I'll focus on the Noon and 6pm-10pm time slots which seem to be better than the rest.


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bob368
Joined: 29.05.2019

A small impromptu post at half past eleven...

I played a little over 6h today, 216 games in total and it felt dreadful. I narrowed it down to two issues:

  • I got myself into shitty spot by lack of post flop experience and playing on 4 tables
  • I got unlucky on my actual good spots

The first issue is expected, I'm improving and gaining experience every day.
The second issue seemed hard to quantify: am I unlucky or just playing like crap?

So I actually did a little excel table (because HM2 is a piece of trash that hasn't been updated since 2005 with useful features). It required a bit of manual entry for the 446 games where I was all-in with a showdown.


In this table you can see for each equity range (split every 10%). Keep in mind this is the equity against Vilain actual hand, I'm obviously considering a range before a push/call. For instance, I played 81 pushes with my equity (at the time of the push/call) between 60 & 70% (avg. 65.1%) and won 48 of them (59.3%) while if on average, I'd win 52.7 (65.1%).

Over those 446 hands I lost nearly 15 more than the average (which is perfectly within the variance, that's not in question here).

For the sake of argument let's say that:

  • 33% of them wouldn't change the outcome of the game
  • 33% would let me go from 3rd to at least 2nd. Of those I'll assume that 50% would have let me finish 1st
  • 33% would let me win instead of finishing 2nd

That's far from a perfect model, but it's something.

That's still negative ROI, but at least now I can go to sleep knowing I'm both shit and unlucky.


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AgapieGheorghe
Joined: 10.07.2011

Hey, how are things going ?


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