NL20 SH Speed 88, Cbet 2nd pair OOP?

Agree with you. No need to bluff this hand. You will have enough K♠: and gutshots to bluff.

Yes, we do not need to turn our hand into a bluff.

If he doesn't fold to cbets, why cant you bet for value vs 5x, 43s 22-77 that hasn't hit a set and overcards, if he floats the flop to steal on the turn a lot, this turn card is a good card to induce a bluff on and hope the river goes check check, or maybe blocker/ value bet 30% what do you think to this?

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Originally posted by FrozenElf
If he doesn't fold to cbets, why cant you bet for value vs 5x, 43s 22-77 that hasn't hit a set and overcards

My first thought. Against a guy who doesn't fold to cbets, I'm for sure cbetting second pair.

The problem is does he have all those hands into his range.
If you think he has them - you can bet. But if you are not sure...you can x.

I think

Originally posted by MJPerry

Originally posted by FrozenElf
If he doesn't fold to cbets, why cant you bet for value vs 5x, 43s 22-77 that hasn't hit a set and overcards

My first thought. Against a guy who doesn't fold to cbets, I'm for sure cbetting second pair.

I think you guys make too general assumptions based on stats for 80 hands. His VPIP/PFR gap is not that ultrafishy wide. He is cold calling from MP which should mean tighter. He might just cold call a lot from BB or BU.
If you bet the flop, would you go for another barrel n the turn and on what cards?

On overcards to the board or 8...

I would check any card higher then a T for a start, I don't think we gain value from any of those hands I mentioned but betting vs that, only the top of his range will likely continue JX. I think checking back on a blank is also a good plan with intention of bluff catching vs smaller pairs, or betting 1/2 for value on the river, if he is a fishy player.

I like what you said here about making asumptions based on that sample size, I think you are completely right, but I also think we could assign him a range better, 22-JJ 54s-9Ts Suited broadway's is a good start if you think about that range on this flop, I think we are pretty good against it especially if we he cold calls some suited 2 gappers.

I ment to edit but I quoted anyway read this 1 instead slightly different

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Originally posted by FrozenElf
I would check any card higher then a T for a start, I don't think we gain value from any of those hands I mentioned and we just get all the hands we beat to fold, only the top of his range will likely continue JX. I think checking back on a blank is also a good plan with intention of bluff catching vs smaller pairs, or betting 1/2 for value on the river, if he is a fishy player.

I like what you said here about making asumptions based on that sample size, I think you are completely right, but I also think we could assign him a range better, 22-JJ 54s-9Ts Suited broadway's is a good start if you think about that range on this flop, I think we are pretty good against it especially if we he cold calls some suited 2 gappers.

I do not like the idea of betting the flop and then checking on T+ cards.
We show weakness, now every villain can take the pot away ftom us if he bets.
If we are betting flop we should bet on overcards on turn too.

I would stick to my initial opinion - we should not turn our hand into a bluff and must xc.

The idea of checking is so we can bluff catch, Think about what hands villain will bet an over card with, in that range, he will bet all small pairs, he will check JX because he will be scared of the over card, with a check on the turn it doesn't mean check fold, its bluff inducing, the river will most likely go check check here too, with all hands we beat so we can easy fold to a river bet, if he is super aggressive, and loves to bluff, then im not sure im folding, river bet either.

You will xc turn with 2 overs?

in this hand we have 88? what do you mean? we don't have overcards.

I guess I wasn't clear in my last comment, let me try and reword it

The guy who cold calls, like Vascatabuci pointed out, doesn't look that fish based on stats so far, so his range is something like this.

AT-AK, Suited Broadways, 45s-T9s, 22-JJ,

If we bet the flop all the range that continues might be something like this,

22-Jj, 5x, Jx - the reason he may call with all pairs is because this flop is pretty dry and doesn't hit much of our range

If we split that range up into 2 catorgories, 1 that will bet the turn and 1 that will check

Bet turn - 22-JJ, 5x, AJ, all the small pairs will try to take the pot down after you check using this A on as a perfect opportunity to steal the pot.

Check turn - Jx, the reason J X will most likely check, is because if villain is a reasonable player he will know you, fold all the hands he beats if he bets here, and this is also a scare card to his JX

Witch leaves the river, hands that will bet here are AJ 22 55, so we could fold vs bet on the river, all the other hands are going to check back after you cbet and calling the turn on Ahigh, since your perceived range looks like, you cbet the flop with Ax and check called the turn.

If you bet flop, an overcard comes on the turn. What are you going to do?

First, the range you hive him is too wide.
Second, we do not accomplish much with a cbet on flop.
Third, no need to turn our hand into a bluff.
Fourth, we feel awkward on many turn cards.

So, I myself, like the passive way. Not saying it is correct.

Originally posted by nitrol
First, the range you hive him is too wide.
Second, we do not accomplish much with a cbet on flop.
Third, no need to turn our hand into a bluff.
Fourth, we feel awkward on many turn cards.

So, I myself, like the passive way. Not saying it is correct.

Maybe, you feel uncomfortable, playing OP with medium strength hands, this hand is stronger then it looks though, it is 2nd pair, but it also puts 2nd pair to 3rd pair, that opponents sometimes forget.

And I don't believe the range I applied is inaccurate, what would you suggest?